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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:16 am
Posts: 189
Location: Vancouver, BC
Calling Madcow!!! :hello:

Is it possible to update this list for those of us that have "made the leap" to Sram's new road groups?

I have been running Sram Force (Shifters, RD, FD and PC-1090R chain, with DA 11-23 cassette, and FSA SLK 50/34 crankset) since last fall, and I'm ready to do some tinkering to save some weight.

Key here is to only make changes (i.e. bolts) that will have as close to no negative impact on performance as possible. Just trying to save a litte weight and to help pass a few cold and rainy Vancouver winter days.

I'm sure that there are a number of users that have had some experience in this area, but this thread specifically - and the way it has been set-up - has been the most helpful I've come across. A great format!

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:38 am
Posts: 1717
Location: Dutchess County, NY
SirVelo wrote:
Calling Madcow!!! :hello:

Is it possible to update this list for those of us that have "made the leap" to Sram's new road groups?

I have been running Sram Force (Shifters, RD, FD and PC-1090R chain, with DA 11-23 cassette, and FSA SLK 50/34 crankset) since last fall, and I'm ready to do some tinkering to save some weight.

Key here is to only make changes (i.e. bolts) that will have as close to no negative impact on performance as possible. Just trying to save a litte weight and to help pass a few cold and rainy Vancouver winter days.

I'm sure that there are a number of users that have had some experience in this area, but this thread specifically - and the way it has been set-up - has been the most helpful I've come across. A great format!

Cheers!


In regards to sram- I was able to use nylon bolts to replace the limit screws and b-stay screw for the rear der. It saved 3-4g over the originals w/ no impact on performance (once they were set).


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Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:08 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:22 pm
Posts: 3533
Location: Tucson, Az.
SirVelo wrote:
Calling Madcow!!! :hello:

Is it possible to update this list for those of us that have "made the leap" to Sram's new road groups?

I have been running Sram Force (Shifters, RD, FD and PC-1090R chain, with DA 11-23 cassette, and FSA SLK 50/34 crankset) since last fall, and I'm ready to do some tinkering to save some weight.

Key here is to only make changes (i.e. bolts) that will have as close to no negative impact on performance as possible. Just trying to save a litte weight and to help pass a few cold and rainy Vancouver winter days.

I'm sure that there are a number of users that have had some experience in this area, but this thread specifically - and the way it has been set-up - has been the most helpful I've come across. A great format!

Cheers!


Sorry I missed this post, I haven't had that much time for the boards lately. I'll try to get around to stripping a Sram group, but it will take a while, especially since I just dumped the group we had been using on the shop bikes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:18 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:10 am
Posts: 1842
Location: Melbourne, Australia
mdeth1313 wrote:
In regards to sram- I was able to use nylon bolts to replace the limit screws and b-stay screw for the rear der. It saved 3-4g over the originals w/ no impact on performance (once they were set).


How usefull are Nylon bolts? Using them for limit and b tension screws sounds like a good idea, but do they loose adjustment any easier than metal bolts?
What about for bottle cage bolts? Are they strong enough?

It strikes me that using a hard plastic for these parts makes sense, and would be cheaper than using even Al and lighter, so why aren't the manufacturers using them as OEM? I would think even Al would get used more in non structural applications. Is it to protect against ham fisted mechanics killing the bolt heads, or is it just a general durability issue?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:19 pm 
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Posts: 189
Location: Vancouver, BC
Madcow, I don't expect you to go out of your way for it, I was just hoping that I could find a quick/easy answer :oops: If anyone has done some tuning of Sram Force components, the feedback would be greatly appreciated! :thanx:

This is a great thread, and thanks for all the responses/info so far!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:19 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:10 am
Posts: 1842
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Any news on the sram bolt list?

What about updates or changes for 2008?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:33 am
Posts: 2436
Location: Europe
It's not much but it's something:

2007 SRAM Force rear derailleur:


Limit screws: 2 times M4x14 Buttonhead
Tension screw: M4x20 Buttonhead
Pulleywheel bolt upper: M4x14 Countersunk
Pulleywheel bolt lower: M5x14 Countersunk
Pinch bolt: M5x8

All these bolts are steel and IMO can be replaced by aluminium bolts saving around 5.5 grams. The pivoting bolt is already aluminium.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:25 am
Posts: 726
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
I'm really glad I stumbled on this post - finding this stuff is the kind of thing that keep you awake at night - thanks Madcow!

In relation to the Campy RD tuning list aren't there other bolts that can be changed over? - I think Felix noted that he had luck changing over the bolts for
- jockey wheels x 2
- pivot bolt x 1
- 'front plate fixing bolt' x1
I think you can get a Kronos alu pivot bolt that will suit Record through FWB (?) - does anyone know the sizes of the other bolts?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:36 pm 
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Posts: 304
Location: Amsterdam
Brilliant post, thanks.

Does anyone have a similar list but for SRAM Force?


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 Post subject: TRP euro x bolts
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:22 pm
Posts: 97
Does anyone know the bolt size for the mounting bolts for TRPs eurox Cantilever alloy?


Also if you have not seen it torontocycles.com is an awesome place to get ti and alloy bolts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:38 am
Posts: 1717
Location: Dutchess County, NY
Phill P wrote:
mdeth1313 wrote:
In regards to sram- I was able to use nylon bolts to replace the limit screws and b-stay screw for the rear der. It saved 3-4g over the originals w/ no impact on performance (once they were set).


How usefull are Nylon bolts? Using them for limit and b tension screws sounds like a good idea, but do they loose adjustment any easier than metal bolts?
What about for bottle cage bolts? Are they strong enough?

It strikes me that using a hard plastic for these parts makes sense, and would be cheaper than using even Al and lighter, so why aren't the manufacturers using them as OEM? I would think even Al would get used more in non structural applications. Is it to protect against ham fisted mechanics killing the bolt heads, or is it just a general durability issue?


I had no issues using the nylon bolts for the rear der. limit screws and b-stay. Held as well as the stock bolts. As for the FD, I cant comment as I find the sram FD's to be crap and went w/ a tuned campy chorus FD.

W/ Sram red there's not much to do as most bolts are ti or alu already.

The biggest tuning savings I found w/ red were the btp carbon clamps for the shifters (not debating the safety issue, go w/ your own risk tolerance) and carbon rear der. pulleys.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:25 pm 
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Posts: 2806
Location: People's Republic of Boulder
mdeth1313 wrote:
and carbon rear der. pulleys.


What pulleys did you use and what was the savings?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:10 am
Posts: 1842
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has anybody got thier hands on the 09 gear from Shimano Campy and SRAM long enough to do a new bolt list??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:38 am
Posts: 1717
Location: Dutchess County, NY
coloclimber wrote:
mdeth1313 wrote:
and carbon rear der. pulleys.


What pulleys did you use and what was the savings?


I got them from ebay- - rothshek-- they weighed 10g for the pair- cant remember exactly what the red pulleys weighed, but the savings was between 12-20g.


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 Post subject:
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:46 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Los Angeles
looking at the pro-bolt site they have different pitches: 1mm, 1.25, 1.5... anyone know which we would be looking for tuning campag record group?

thanks for the list madcow!

Superlite wrote:
gandini wrote
Quote:
Unfortunately it is a special bolt. Cinelli don't make too many threadless stems, so I can't go by my older quill stems from them. And the bolt is very different from any I've seen on TTT or other threadless stems.
Also a correction: it takes a 6mm Allen wrench, but is a different thread to other 6mm Allen bolts on a bicycle (like the derailler clamp bolts.) It's about 20mm long.


Metric bolt of a certian size are always the same, there are differences in threading. It is most likely an oversized head that is causing the confusion, meaning the bolt is smaller then you think, sounds like an M6 bolt with an 6mm key, instead of the usual 5mm key.

Also, you sure the bolt isn't just worn or the threading on the bar isn't stripped? Only thing I can think of is a english bolt is used, but that wouldn't make sense. :?

Madcow wrote
Quote:
2004 Ram, used 2 M6x16 bolts for mounting the stem and 2 M4x12bolts for mounting the computer arm. They did however use a 5mm allen key not a 6mm. I seem to remember the 05 version is the same, but I don't have any to check against right now.


Standard for M6 socket bolts is 5mm key. The number folloing the M, in the case M6 represents two things, the thread diameter and the head height, not the key size. Oversized keys can be found usually on taper head screws, like on Shimano deraileur bolts in which an M5 bolt has a 5mm key, instead of the standard 4mm key on a M5 socket bolt.

Hope that clearifies things. Just dont want to confuse people. :wink:

So, here is how it works,

M-stands for Metric

Number after M-stands for thread diameter and head height

To calculate head diameter you take the number following M, divide it by 2, and add the original number plus one half M plus 1 for head diameter.

Head diameter = M + (M/2) + 1, where M represents the number following M.

So here is an example, well use M6 since that is what we are talking about.

M6
Thread diameter = 6mm
Head height = 6mm
Socket = 5mm
Head width 6+(6/2)+1=13mm

And lenght of bolt is always from the bottom of the head to the bottom of the screw, head height is not included, unless otherwise noted.

Hope this helps for future purchasing of bolts! Or did I just confuse everyone? :hmm: :D

ONE LAST THING!!!

If you are buying Ti bolts for weight savings purposes taper heads are about 5-20% lighter, depending on length, due to the head structure. Socket heads have considerably more material in them then the heads of a taper bolt.

On my Ritchey stem the weight savings of the Ti socket head bolts averaged 10.5g, with the taper head bolts it was 12.5g saved.

I just bought some socket head type bolts because I thougth the taper heads didnt have the strength needed, but I recently learned Zipp uses them on their stems, so I think they are safe to use and save a few more grams. :twisted:


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