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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:40 pm 
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I can believe the elonation being imperceptable over 12" after 4500 miles, but not the .210 roller spacing. I'd say your caliper tips are not hitting the center of the roller. I would expect a spacing around .215 after 2,000 miles or less and maybe .230 after 4500.

If that's the first chain on a cassette, I'd be getting it off quick, unless you intend to use that one chain for 10,000 miles and trash both the chain and cassette together. You may already encounter chain skip on your most-used cog, if a new chain is installed now. With 10 speed, I alternated chains every 2500 miles, so the third and last chain in the rotation went on a 5,000 miles, just to insure that I got no chain skip.


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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:40 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:50 pm 
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DaveS wrote:
I can believe the elonation being imperceptable over 12" after 4500 miles, but not the .210 roller spacing. I'd say your caliper tips are not hitting the center of the roller. I would expect a spacing around .215 after 2,000 miles or less and maybe .230 after 4500.

If that's the first chain on a cassette, I'd be getting it off quick, unless you intend to use that one chain for 10,000 miles and trash both the chain and cassette together. You may already encounter chain skip on your most-used cog, if a new chain is installed now. With 10 speed, I alternated chains every 2500 miles, so the third and last chain in the rotation went on a 5,000 miles, just to insure that I got no chain skip.



I just checked my work by remeasuring more thoroughly. I measured between rollers (between outer plates where there's more width) at several links along the chain 3x each, making sure the caliper tips were hitting center and the rollers were being displaced away from each. I'm getting .214" consistently. I also did a plug test using a flat tip screwdriver that is .210" at the tip and is marked at the .230" wide point (.280" down from the tip). That test result appears to be consistent with my caliper measurements and certainly shows that the spacing is not even close to .230".

If I had a willing and able assistant to take pictures to show how I do my measurements I would but I don't.

Anyway, I plan on continuing to use this chain and cassette until the spacing reaches at least .230" and then replace both. Once there is a purpose made 11sp master/quick link out on the market with a good established reputation I'll switch to the 3 chain to 1 cassette rotation system.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:05 pm 
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occor...

You're a lot easier on chains than I am and I only weigh 135. Maybe it's all the climbing I do. I've got several chains with about the same roller spacing after 2,000 miles or less. It still seems wiser to change the chain for $40 and potentially get far more miles from the cassette, rather than just keep using the chain and know that the cassette won't mate with a new chain. Of course there is the chance that it's too late, but unlikely if the wear is as low as you say. By the time you get a second chain worn, there will probably be master links available. I've had no problems with the KMC missing link for Campy 10 chains. The SRAM 10 powerloc has worked for other users.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:12 pm 
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DaveS wrote:
occor...

You're a lot easier on chains than I am and I only weigh 135. Maybe it's all the climbing I do. I've got several chains with about the same roller spacing after 2,000 miles or less. It still seems wiser to change the chain for $40 and potentially get far more miles from the cassette, rather than just keep using the chain and know that the cassette won't mate with a new chain. Of course there is the chance that it's too late, but unlikely if the wear is as low as you say. By the time you get a second chain worn, there will probably be master links available. I've had no problems with the KMC missing link for Campy 10 chains. The SRAM 10 powerloc has worked for other users.



It's certainly not flat here and I weigh 175. I did climb 12,000' total last week but that was the most climbing during one week I've done on this chain by far. 3,000 to 4,000' per week has been more typical. I've never ridden in the rain with this chain and it's relatively dry here in general. If I'm easy on chains somehow I'm not sure what the secret is.

I suppose I can purchase two more R11 chains right now for $99 from Ribble with shipping and start rotating if .214" indicates I'm not too late.

BTW, it looks like Lickton's has the Forster Superlink X-11 in stock at last but I'm a wait and see on that for now. For 10 speed I found the Wipperman link to be much more durable than the Superlink IV.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:26 pm 
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I like the Wipperman connex link too and even used a 10S1 model with 11 speed. They quite making those a couple of years ago. The current ones are too wide across the inside of the plates.

I do about 4000 feet of climbing on every 50 mile ride. I don't ride in the rain either, but it can be dusty and gritty here in Denver.

I bought 9 chains from Ribble back when they were about $35 each. The large order helps dilute the $32 freight. I also ordered 6 tires, and a bunch of cables & housing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:38 pm 
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Wipperman still showing a 10S1:

http://www.connexchain.com/Bicycle-chains/10-Speed/1_326.html

being thrifty I use the 10S0's on my Campy 10 speeds. no experience with going to 11 yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:47 pm 
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$35... CHEAP!! :shock:

I can do about 5,500'+ here on a 50 mile ride up to Mt. Wilson now that the Angeles Nation Forrest recently reopened (post wild fire)... and I've lost enough weight. I did that for the first time on New Years day and I'd like to include it in my routine once a week going forward... but I'd also like to lose 15 to 20 more pounds too.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:50 pm 
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Ribbles' current price is only about $38 for a Chorus chain. My climbing is mostly in a 10 mile stretch of my 50 mile ride. The rest is hills.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:55 pm 
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bikerjulio wrote:
Wipperman still showing a 10S1:

http://www.connexchain.com/Bicycle-chains/10-Speed/1_326.html

being thrifty I use the 10S0's on my Campy 10 speeds. no experience with going to 11 yet.


They may still use that model number, but the link is not the same as it was a few years ago. They used to make a "Shimano compatible" chain that was narrower. It's that link that fit the best. Now they only make chains "compatible with all 10 speed systems" and they chose the dimensions that match Shimano and KMC. The width inside the plates is wider than Campy or SRAM, even though the outside width is the same 5.9mm.

If in doubt, use feeler gages to check side clearance; .004-.008 inch is great, .012 tolerable, but .016 is very sloppy.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:53 am 
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Dave - the part I don't quite get is that if you say

"A well maintained Campy chain will rarely reach the commonly recommended .5% elongation, if it's properly measured with a precision scale, not one of the highly inaccurate chain checkers. "


Then why the need to swap chains out after 2000 miles or so?

On one hand it seems like your saying how good the Campy chains are, but then you never leave them on for half their life span.


Also....doesn't one or two chains + one cassette & 5000 miles = about the same (cost wise) as 4 chains + 1 cassette and 10000 miles?

I'm not trying to question you, just reading in between the lines of what people have reported chain wear and life to be at. And as I don't have an 11sp tool, a chain change is a trip for the bike to the lbs :(

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:23 am 
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Approx maths I had;

Chain x3 = £100 + cassette (chorus11) = £90; total £190. Mileage across three chains on rotation (each chain doing 2 or 3 duties total, 1000km a turn) @ 10,000km total lifespan, maybe a touch more. The fresher chains help to spread the wear on the cassette for longer, & each doing multiple duties as wear increases thus phasing in the wear on the cassette and the chains equally.

Chain x1 = £33 + cassette (chorus11) = £90; total £123. Mileage total expected before shot - max 4,000km. To get to the same expected life span you spend approx £123 x 2.5= £307 minimum.

A chain used continuously will have marked wear increase as it gets older - this will impair more on drive train quality & also increase wear on other drive items - chain rings being particularly expensive. So the cheaper route in the short term also has longer term issues & might lead to poorer drive train quality at a sooner point in time.

Effectively on the above basis the saving achieved pays for the chain tool + extra pins; assuming everything bought at good prices (ribble for example).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:27 am 
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@Tinea Pedis

I'm pretty sure Dave uses each of his 3 chains at least twice.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:17 am 
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DaveS- can you explain your chains in rotation scheme? Do you have Connex connectors on them or do you have a bunch of those ridiculously expensive Campy pins around? Are you doing this with the 11sp chains as well?
Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:02 pm 
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BBB also makes 11x cassetes and chains

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:05 pm 
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To clarify the rotation scheme; I take a chain off after 1500-2500 miles but I don't toss it, I keep it for for repeated uses. I expect 4-6,000 miles in total from each chain in a rotation.

Changing chains frequently is done to avoid chain skip. If a single chain is used for 4-6,000 miles, it can create chain skip when a new chain is installed, even if the elongation of the old chain is far less the .5%. I've had it happen twice. I made the mistake of believing some "experts" who claimed that as long as the chain was not elongated, it would not damage the cogs. That is NOT true. I found that out the hard way. I had one chain with about .15% elongation that wore out two Ti cogs in only 4,000 miles.

If the chains are rotated with any reasonable frequency, the group of chains and the cassette will wear-in together and you will never have the cassette life limited by chain skip. Most people toss half-worn chains in an attempt to protect the cassette. What's really being done is keeping all the chains used on the cassette in a narrow wear range. I do the same thing, but I might put three chains on the cassette, 3-4 times each. That's a lot cheaper than buying 9-12 chains.

With 11 speed, I'm using KMC links or the few 10S1 connex links I have left. I've got 3 bikes and 9 chains, so I won't need many master links soon. Hopefully, KMC will have an 11 speed link out in the next year. I would not waste the money for replacement Campy joining pins.


Last edited by DaveS on Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:05 pm 


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