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 Post subject: Zipp 404 and cross winds
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Posts: 2556
Location: eh?
Will I get blown around too much if I try to use Zipp 404's as an everday wheel?

Do I need to get a 303 front?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:05 am
Posts: 1011
Mr.Gib wrote:
Will I get blown around too much if I try to use Zipp 404's as an everday wheel?

Do I need to get a 303 front?


You definitely will notice the difference between them and a regular rim if it's windy out. I know someone that uses them as an everyday wheel.. except if it's windy out. If you can afford 404's then I'd think you could afford another set of rims .. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:53 pm
Posts: 194
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
I used them on a long ride in Wisconsins, traveling down the path of the Mississippi.

The cross winds really made handling the bike a chore. I didn't notice any problems for most of the ride, but when going across open fields with a strong crossing breeze, the gusts were certainly hard to handle.

I love the wheels for 90% of the ride, but they can be a problem with a strong wind.

I recall one person noting that he used them in Hawaii during an ironman competition and he got blown around quite a bit.

The price of an aero wheel!!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Posts: 2556
Location: eh?
Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like 404's are managable if a bit of a handful at times. I do ride with other riders sometimes and I really pride myself on being a steady wheel (and otherwise having good peleton etiquette). I'd hate to get blown around a bit and knock someone down.

I do have a set of Ksyriums for really windy days, although my hope is not to have to use them. I guess this leads to the question about using a 303 for the front and a 404 for the rear. My preference is to have a matched set - I think it looks better.

Maybe this means a set of 303's and forget the 404's. However I am 185lb and my guess is I will get more durability and lateral stiffness out of 404's versus 303's. (I will be going with 24F, 28R spoke counts.)

Decisions, decisions.


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 Post subject: Kysiriums
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:40 pm
Posts: 863
Location: Eire
Im my experience Kysiriums are just as whippy in crosswinds as 404s. It would be interesting to calculate the surface area of a set of kysirium spokes and compare it to that of a 404 - and thats without taking account of the fact that the 404 rim is designed to be slippery whereas a rotating set of kysirium spokes is presenting a regular barn door to a sidewind.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:13 pm
Posts: 1918
Location: Australia/Czech-Rep.
I couldnt think anything worse then a set of 404s in cross winds! Sorry and I know you dont want to hear this!

Even a set of 303's! Thats what I have. And I hate having a cross wind with them! And sometimes it takes the fun out of riding when you are concerntrating so much on handling the bike!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Posts: 2556
Location: eh?
Someone raised the point that a crosswind will pull ten times as much on the riders body then any wheel (except a disc of course.)

Sounds like there is a mixture of opinion on this one - no clear consensus. Maybe this is something that can really affect a small rider but be much less of a factor for someone my size.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:06 pm 
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Location: eh?
Oh BTW, my Ksyriums are Elites, better in crosswinds then SSC SL.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:05 am
Posts: 1011
Mr.Gib wrote:
Someone raised the point that a crosswind will pull ten times as much on the riders body then any wheel (except a disc of course.)



True, more surface area to the rider, BUT there is allot more mass in the rider also. The rider also has an irregular shape. The wheels are very light and with a flat surface area can act like a sail ... and since it's shape is in one "plane", the force of the wind will push the wheel in the same direction against all points on the rim, irregarless of it's direction. And even more true the lighter and large diameter the wheel is .. why zipps aren't the greatest in crosswinds. I haven't heard but I'm willing to bet the Mavic carbones are better then zipps against crosswinds .. and the HED.3 is probably one of the best but they are <i>heavy</i>!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:12 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Posts: 2556
Location: eh?
Bobalou, your point about the low mass and the flat surface of the wheels is a good one. However the mass of the rider sits above and applies stability to the wheel.

I guess the issue is more how the crosswind affects steering. If you had zero rake in your fork then would the crosswind only have the effect of lateral pull and would not affect steering? Simply leaning into the wind as you do to compensate for crosswind drag on your body would be the only physical adjustment necessary. Of course most if not all forks have some rake and therefore the steering will always be an issue.

Ok then, if I am not going to get Zipps, somebody recommend a high end wheel. Remember, I have got bad knees so I am looking for every advantage I can get (I have to be able to keep up to my wife - no joke, she is unbelievably strong).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 10:15 am
Posts: 1159
Why don't you buy a 404 for the rear and a 202 for the front? In my experience the front wheel is very unstable in crosswinds, but the rear wheel can handle them very well. You could also buy a set of 404 and get a 202 front wheel for windy days.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:37 am
Posts: 317
Location: Colorado, USA
can you not borrow some 404's from someone and try them out? im 65kg and get blown around like a fart inthe wind but have no problems riding my 404's... even in weather when there's 50mph gusts. I wouldn't write off the zipp's yet, be nice if you can try them. Everyone is different and what is fine for one rider might be unnaceptable for another.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:27 pm 
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Posts: 2556
Location: eh?
Shinkansen,

Do I understand you correctly? You are very light, you get blown around a lot, but you don't mind?

I am close to 85kg (my farts are heavy too :lol: ). I should be OK.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:59 am
Posts: 1386
Location: Sydney, Australia
I rode to my lbs with a 420 yesterday, and noticed a large amount of drag on the wheel during cross winds.

Are deep sections slower than low profile in cross winds and not head or tail winds?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:36 pm
Posts: 4123
Whether one has a problem with high profile rims depends a lot on the individual. Some people are intuitively better at bike handling than others. You see this on MTB trails all the time. On the rough or technical stuff the differences become very apparent.

From my experience Cosmic Carbone are faster in pretty much all wind conditions.


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