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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:21 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
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Location: eh?
I am having some serious creaking from my newly built Advanced SL. I am wondering if you guys apply grease to the outside of the plastic adapters? Shimano's instructions say nothing about this. My philosophy is to grease the @#%!@ out of everything. I am a seriously annoyed as I assumed the BB86 design should be quiet. I appreciate any tips for dealing with noise from this type of BB.

Second question - how important is facing for a BB86 setup?

Not sure exactly what the LBS did but will ask tomorrow.
(BTW all other possible sources of noise have been eliminated - it's definitely the BB.)

Thanks.

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Last edited by Mr.Gib on Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:30 am 
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OK so I did a little searching and found that Loktite 641 is needed. Should this be applied to the BB shell before the adapters are pressed in or between the bearings and the adapter or both?

Other tips appreciated.

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Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:30 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:59 am 
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My TCR's BB86 has been very quiet, without the use of loctite. I thought you'd only need loctite for campy's ultra-torque BB86 adapter which is made of metals. I didn't face my TCR's BB (and I think I read it somewhere that said you shouldn't either)I know you've checked everything, but just to make sure, have you tightened your pedals? None of the TCR + BB86 in my LBS have creaking problems either.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:31 pm 
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this is a real common issue. My SL does it, and most of the people I know on SL's have done this. The fix? I have found that by removing the cups, cleaning and regreasing them does the trick (for a while) evenutally you will need to repeat the process. I have read that locktite will also help but I haven't tried that. For me it is just part of my BB service routine - knock out the cups, clean, grease... reinsert...

My experience has been it doesn't matter if you use Shimano BB86, FSA Ceramic BB86 or Campy. They all end up creaking sooner or later.

Hope this helps..


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Thanks.

Sounds like an ongoing problem for most bikes. Just mad that I have to deal with it from the first ride.

Farbound - you are the lucky owner of a quiet bike.

Still interested to hear from the Loctite users.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:37 am 
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Location: seattle wa
my sl bottom bracket creaks just a bit when standing and cranking hard. it seems that most of them i have worked on have a little bit of creaking, but nothing loud or annoying. the shimano and sram cups do not need grease or loctite, although i grease them anyways. the campy bearing cups need the 641 loctite. removing and reinstalling the plastic cups will only make the creak worse, as these cups are designed to deform when pressed into the bb shell. they are not supposed to be reusable. removing the crankarms and greasing the points of contact between the bearings and spindle did quiet my creak down a bit, but not entirely.

do not modify the bb cups in any way. they are pre-faced. cleaning them very thoroughly prior to installation is a good idea, though. use something that leaves no residue, like simple green. alcohol and many other solvents will leave behind residue that may increase the chances of creaking, especially if you choose not to grease the plastic cups.

if your frame is the advanced sl with a seatpost, make sure to cut off the excess post inside the frame as well, because the post clicking inside the frame turned out to be the cause of several "mystery creaks". obviously this was only heard when seated, though.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:11 am 
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Thanks Speedwobbles.

I wasn't thinking of facing/modifying the cups but rather making sure that the BB shell of the frame was properly faced. I think the idea is that with the deformable cups facing of the BB shell is not really necessary except that the correct orientation of the bearings depends on properly parallel BB shell faces prior to the installation of the cups.

I am curious if anyone has used Loctite between the plastic cups and BB shell on the Giant. My LBS tells me everything is already greased and like you say removing and reinstalling a deformable part is usually not a good idea. Although others here seem to re and re on a regular basis. However I think I have to try something. The noise level is a bit more than acceptable IMO.

The bike is ISP and the noise is only out of the saddle - so not saddle or seatpost issues.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Speed wobbles -
Can you add more detail as to what you are talking about? I am not following what you are saying..

if your frame is the advanced sl with a seatpost, make sure to cut off the excess post inside the frame as well, because the post clicking inside the frame turned out to be the cause of several "mystery creaks". obviously this was only heard when seated, though"

What has me puzzled is other then removing excess seat mast to fit the rider.. what other areas can you trim inside the frame and how do you access it to trim?

As far as the BB deforming.. I know they say not to do it, my LBS was the one who told me it was "okay" but common sense has to tell me repeating this over and over is not a good for it long term. For me.. It seems as long as I ride it in dry conditions I am fine, as soon as I ride in wet - time to remove and re-grease. (and I am not talking about heavy rain)

I ride with about 15 people that have the BB86 and everyone seems to encounter this. Must be some type of BB86 design flaw.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:29 am 
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Location: Australia
He's talking about the non ISP models, the version that runs a seat post. It must touch inside the frame further down.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:19 am 
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Location: seattle wa
fast700c is correct, i was talking about the telescoping post models, not the isp models. if there is excess post inside the frame it can click or creak against the walls of the seattube with the forward-backward rocking of normal pedaling action. cutting off the excess about 1/2inch to 1 inch below the seat cluster junction solves this (and saves weight :D ). the frame itself needs no modification.

as for the bottom bracket clicking - it is true that most of the bb86 bikes i have worked have some type of extreme stress clicking, while a very few have a consistent creak. these creaks are usually solved by replacing the bottom bracket. installation is crucial with these, you must be much more careful than when installing a headset. while the hard aluminum cups of a headset will straighten themselves out a bit as you press them in, the plastic cups around the bb bearings will deform immediately as you press. they must be *perfectly* straight to begin with, or you will likely have some noise due to the cups not sitting perfectly in the frame. when they are lined up correctly, i have found there to be a minimum level of clicking. after each installation i have done with this level of care, no bike has developed anything other than a sprint or extreme load type ticking sound. perhaps this is just the design of the bb. in my mind, every bike will make some noise, and that this is simply the personality of the design. so long as the sound is nothing distracting, it is unimportant. however, many people cannot stand even the tiniest of noises from their machine. these people tend to spend a crazy amount of energy and money to eliminate them (and paying my salary in the process :wink: ). i just get on and ride. when my bike clicks, it means i'm riding hard.

re: removing and reinstalling the cups - i am passing along the information given to me by both my giant and my shimano rep. they feel it will not give an ideal installation to press used plastic cups into the bb. once they deform, you will never get as good of a full seal all the way around the cup. as a professional mechanic, i go by what these representatives tell me until my own experience proves otherwise. in this particular case, my experience has upheld their assertion. i have re-pressed the bearings upon customer request on two different occasions, and i could feel a difference pressing in the used cups. there was a bit less resistance, which leads me to believe that a second or third installation will never be the same as the first. that said, my re-pressings did improve creak levels, likely because i took so much care assuring that they were aligned properly.

long story short, with my own bike, i will use new cups every time i overhaul my bb. with your own bikes, feel free to re-press, but keep in mind that new cups will offer a much better chance of a clean, secure, and noiseless fit.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:16 am 
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Thanks again Speedwobbles.

Do you have any view of using Loctite 641 between the plastic cups and the frame on a fresh install or a reinstall? My thought is that the 641 would increase the chance of a quiet BB in a new install and make up for any loss of conformity if I were to re install the BB.

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Mr.Gib got it right


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:43 pm 
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Location: seattle wa
i haven't used the 641 loctite on these BBs yet, as i haven't had occasion to press any campy UT cups. i also haven't tried it with the plastic cups. i imagine it couldn't hurt, although it might not help either. i always grease the plastic cups, even though it is not technically necessary. i guess my old habits just say a BB should have some grease somewhere. if you are already going to be experimenting to eliminate your creak, i would give the loctite a shot. you might discover the magic bullet.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:29 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:50 pm
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Location: San Luis Obispo County, California
This is one of the reasons I opted for another company when buying a new bike. I have a Giant and enjoy it tremendously, but honestly, I was a bit put off by the BB86 design. Sure Giant says it's lighter and stiffer, but press fit bearings in such a critical section of the bike...i dunno.

I am not surprised by the squeaking, but I do hope you find a remedy. Clicks, squeaks, pops, pings and whatnot, ruin otherwise peaceful and enjoyable rides.

Just win baby....

:thumbup:

robb


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:46 am 
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Well I have a day or so to think about it but I think I'll be the guinea pig and use the Loctite between the plastic cups and the BB shell. I will report back with results. I will find the solution or sell the frame (which would be a shame because I cannot imagine a better performing bicycle).

FWIW the bike is completely silent in the saddle or during light efforts out of the saddle. The noise is only present during harder efforts out of the saddle. However at 86 kg (190 lb) just about anything I do out of the saddle puts a lot of pressure on the cranks and consequently BB. I have to agree with rkoch about the dubious nature of the design. Shimano and Giant must have believed that the plastic aluminum interface would not make noise. Perhaps Shimano will come up with an improved BB unit for these frames soon..

But what about all the pros that have raced this bike (High Road, Rabobank)? Surely the mechanics for these teams have dealt with this issue and have a fix.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:27 pm 
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Has anyone tried the Enduro ceramic BB86 yet?

http://www.superflycycles.com/servlet/- ... tom/Detail

It uses delrin for the press-in portion of the cups. Not sure how that would compare to the stock Shimano material, but the claim is that it quiets it down.....


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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:27 pm 


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