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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:25 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 100
Location: Leicester, UK
Hey guys,

We've just got an unbranded frame in our shop which came from Advanced Composites. It looks identical to the Pedalforce one. However it is definitely NOT a monocoque! It is made to look like one with layers of twill finish over the top of the sections but it clearly isn't if you know what you're looking at! If you look inside the frame the standards aren't that great- tonnes of excess glue and bits of fibre everywhere.

It comes with a Deda Black Magic fork and FSA integral headset for £699. I'd much rather buy a Specialized E5 for that sort of money.

For the record a 56cm AC frame weighed in at 1280g.


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Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:25 am 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:33 pm
Posts: 200
Well here in Singapore, we have our own version of our Taiwan no-name bike shop. Cheap, good and reliable...price is also too unbelievable if compared to Western retails of the same frames but house-branded.

The Link-

http://fusioncycle.com/

Actually a few months back, I tot I saw one model of a carbon frame as advertised by an Italian brand....but sold as fusioncycle brand in SG...the price tooo was too lopsidedly cheap in favor of the Singapore brand.

Check-out their American Classic wheelset pricing too...... :D

There's another one but this time their specialty are titanium bike frames

The link-

http://bikesoul.com

Their Taiwan in-house brand wheelsets are not bad either..... :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:33 pm
Posts: 200
To add...

When checking-out fusioncycle, you may want to zero-in on their carbon CRX model. According to them this is exactly the same frame as the "Leggera carbon compact" and the" Louis Garneau LG 6.2" carbon bike
as use by the Jittery Joe Kalahari team.

Links for the Jittery Joe Kalahari team bike -

http://cyclingnews.com/tech/2005/probik ... is_garneau

If this link does'nt work, try going to the fusioncycle site instead. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:43 am 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5793
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
It looks identical to the Pedalforce one. However it is definitely NOT a monocoque! It is made to look like one with layers of twill finish over the top of the sections but it clearly isn't if you know what you're looking at! If you look inside the frame the standards aren't that great- tonnes of excess glue and bits of fibre everywhere.


First and foremost the term "monocoque" is a pretty stretchable one in the hands of the marketing guys.

Second, if it's using metal lugs to hold the tubing together then yes, they're going to do the best they can to hide them. I know I would.
A fair number of manufacturers offer otherwise identical frames, one true to the monocoque philosophy, the other often visullay identical but lugged.
There invaraibly is a price difference however, selling one for the other is just plain deceipt.

Third, if you were sold a monocoque frame as described by say, the guys at Pedalforce, which incidentally is what a true monocoque frame should be like, and received what you're describing, sue the living daylights out of whoever sold you the thing if you can prove you've been shortchanged.
At the very least file a formal complaint and get the word out....

In the meantime, I'd give Pedalforce the chance they deserve regardless of personal preference, politics or whatever.

Ciao, :wink:

_________________
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:36 pm
Posts: 4123
Suing won't work as the definition of the term "monocoque" is rather fuzzy. In its most rudimentary meaning it stands for a structure in which the skin absorbs most of the stresses. It doesn't imply the object has to be made out of one piece.


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 1:41 am
Posts: 536
Location: Toronto, Canada
Paypal also has the easiest and cheapest merchant account system that you can get. If you have an internet business and want to take payments you have to have a Program and DB in house or at your hosting facility and then to process the order you have to have a merchant account with a bank. There are big charges for both of these. The alternative is to link to your paypal merchant account and they take care of everything for you and are cheaper.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:51 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5793
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
If you have an internet business and want to take payments you have to have a Program and DB in house or at your hosting facility and then to process the order you have to have a merchant account with a bank.


Quote:
Suing won't work as the definition of the term "monocoque" is rather fuzzy.


Sueing is always rather "fuzzy". If you decide to file a lawsuit it's because you didn't receive what you expected and are convinced you can prove it within the boundaries of commercial law.

Quote:
In its most rudimentary meaning it stands for a structure in which the skin absorbs most of the stresses.


No it doesn't.

Quote:
It doesn't imply the object has to be made out of one piece.


Actually it does imply exactly that.....Semantically anyway.
But then you'll have to define what constitutes a bicycle frame and what doesn't.

Ciao, :wink:

_________________
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:24 pm
Posts: 1546
Location: Houston, Texas
That frame looks vaguely familiar as I think the manufacturer was displaying at Interbike last year and I got to hold a size 55cm in my hands. Now I had just been talking to the reps from Giant and had been handling one of the TCR Advanced framesets (w/headset/fork), so the 'Pedal Force' frame (no headset or fork) seemed kind of on the heavy side but over all pretty well made. Although I can not think of the name (CRS in my old age), at the time I could not help feeling that the frame bore a remarkable resemblance to several mainstream vendors offerings.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:05 pm 
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fdegrove wrote:
Actually it does imply exactly that.....Semantically anyway.
But then you'll have to define what constitutes a bicycle frame and what doesn't.


No it doesn't. A plane hull is considered a monocoque structure as well. That's not one piece for sure. It's many sheets riveted together to form a single shell.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:45 pm 
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Holy crap! I might have to pick up a set of cr 420s.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:14 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5793
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
A plane hull is considered a monocoque structure as well. That's not one piece for sure. It's many sheets riveted together to form a single shell.


Depends on how it's done and how the hull relates to the rest of the aircraft.
Same goes for the hull of a ship, boat, yacht, etc.

However, turning the problem upside down:

Would you consider a bicycle made of an aluminium main triangle and a carbon chainstay a monocoque frame?

Why do you think the people at pedalforce stress the fact that the frame they offer is made as they describe and as such qualifies as a true monocoque frame as opposed to the cobbled up constructions using alu or whatever non-carbon materials as structure carrying lugs?

A frame made of several boxes of carbon could be said to have a monocoque main triangle, a mono rear stay etc. But that would not per definition make it a monocoque frame.

From a dictionary:

Quote:
monocoque
a.,n. (denoting) aircraft structure in which the outer skin carries all or most of the torsional and bending stresses; (denoting) car structure in which the body is integral with and shares the stresses with the chassis.


Quote:
© From the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia.
Helicon Publishing LTD 2000.
All rights reserved


And another one from Wikipedia:

Quote:
monocoque

Monocoque (French for "single shell") or unibody is a construction technique that uses the external skin of an object to support some or most of the load on the structure. This is as opposed to using an internal framework that is then covered with a non-load-bearing skin. Monocoque construction was first widely used in aircraft, starting in the 1930s, and is the predominant automobile construction technology today.


So when alu lugs are used to hold the carbon "hull/frame" together it would still qualify as a "monocoque" structure?

I suppose it all depends where you want to draw the line and how flexible
you want to be but in the bicycle trade the carbon frame using the lugged construction technique won't be sold from one professional to another as a monocoque frame. That much I can tell you with absolute certainty.

However, you may well see that same lugged frame being advertised as a monocoque offering.
Now that's one I most certainly won't buy because I'll damn well be doubledutched. See the difference?

Ciao, :wink:

_________________
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:56 pm
Posts: 3722
Location: Wichita, KS
After all this discussion about the 'true meaning' of the term monocoque it seems to me that there is no clear place to draw the line between either being monocoque or NOT being monocoque.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:46 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5793
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
After all this discussion about the 'true meaning' of the term monocoque it seems to me that there is no clear place to draw the line between either being monocoque or NOT being monocoque.


Allow me to put it this way; not being made according to monocoque principals more often than not means compromising structural integrity of the frame.

Anyone who's ridden an alu frame with carbon rearstay will know what I'm on about.
You just don't want the feeling that your bike is taking on a life all of it's own because several parts don't really "talk" to each other as they should.

Stiffness and structural "oneness" are just some of the important parameters, different materials have different Qs (resonant frequencies) hence energy dissipation and vibrational tunneling is a potential problem that's much easier to come to grips with if you're dealing with the same material throughout the bicycle.

One of the reasons carbon as a material is often prefered is exactly because it has such great properties and can be shaped much more easily into a form that helps control unwanted energy reflected back to upset
both rider and the bicycle proper.

When you see these oddly shaped rearstays and toptubes it's not just a gimmick to sell more bikes....
This is just one aspect that sets a well designed bicycle apart from the mainstream offerings.


Ciao, :wink:

_________________
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 12:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:36 pm
Posts: 4123
We both know what the intended meaning of a monocoque bicycles frame is. That's not the same as being able to prove it in a court of law however. Lawyers could think up all kinds of counter arguments. For instance, they could say show me a monocoque frame and I'll show you it's not made out of one piece of carbon but many layers glued together.


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 Post subject:
Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 12:29 am 


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