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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:59 am 
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In some countries Campy is cheaper.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:08 am 
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really? I wonder if it would be cheaper to buy mail order from a store in one of those countries and importing it into the states?


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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:08 am 
  • 16.90 € (including 19% VAT)
  • 63 components


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:01 am 
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This argument can go on forever and usually does on many bike posts, but I have to say that the consensus in the end is usually that campy levers are better because they are rebuildable and fit more hands and fit most hands better and the other Shimanopolist parts are more readily available (I am talking U.S.) and can offer a wider range of gearing using XTR parts in the rear. So for example Santana the largest maker of tandems in the world offers Campy levers and the rest of the drive trane Shimano. They also offer full Campy and full Shimano bikes too, but if you want all the best of the best (and according to Santana this is their personal favorite and the best of the best) Campy levers and Shimanopolist everything else. Also looking at it from a WW point of view the Campy levers are in reality about 85 grams lighter than the Shimanopolist levers and the entire groupset in reality is about 95 grams lighter. So, when you are talking about the groupset being lighter it is realy the levers. And the levers is the part that is really better. If you are not talking about a tandem that needs wide range gearing, a case might be made for using a Campy rear derailer, but otherwise Campy levers Shimanopolist everything else. In business consulting there is the idea of finding the best of breed for every function and I would have to say that using Campy levers and the rest Shimano is probably best of breed. This whole argument is like Ford Chevy, it can go on forever and there are no winners. Both Campy and Shimano are making good stuff and in my opinion they both charge too much, but at least you can get Campy at different prices. In the US it is almost impossible to get even a penny discount off list price on Shimanopolist stuff so I have quit buying it. I have an inventory, but I will no longer buy any new Shimanopolist parts or accessories and I will vote with my feet so to speek. As far as the guys that want proof about the cranks, I am sure proof exists, but I can tell you that square taper bottom brackets and cranks were state of the art in 1950 and if you think a square taper crank can transmit the power from your left leg well then I want to sponsor the guy that races against you. It might not be a lot, but it might be as much as the difference between ceramic bearings in your wheels and regular bearings in your wheels. Like 50 feet in 5 miles (according to Zipp). If you don't care about that that is fine, but when it comes to cranks, stiffer is pretty much better. The bottom bracket doesn't have much effect on the power transmission of your right leg since the crank arm is attached to the chainrings, but the left side has to go through both crank connections to the bottom bracket and the new 7800 stuff is way better at transmiting the power of your left leg and the right leg too because of the wider bearing placement allowing less flex. If you don't believe all this stuff flexes I invite you to step on the front crank arm of my tandem while the rear wheel is held fast, you can create an amazing amount of flex in the cranks, boom tube, etc. to the point that the timing chain has over an inch of slack even thouth the boom tube is oval and over 2 inches wide. My tandem has FSA Team issue CF cranks and BB (Octalink) and the ovalized boom tube is Easton and over 2' wide and an inch tall and I can step on it with about 150 lbs pressure and get close to an inch of slack.

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For certain parts stiffer is more important than lighter.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:10 am 
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Well, I think Campy is working on a new bb design, if that helps. So Shimano fixes their prices; I don't really have a problem with that when I can get an Ultegra 10 build kit for between the price of veloce and centaur. And even worse, I can get 9 speed ultegra for hundreds less than veloce.

I think my next bike will be shimano, unless the dollar starts doing better against the euro.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:44 am 
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The BB stiffness argument is moot. For the record carbon Record is as stiff as the old DA 9 Octalink and it still doesn't matter. Every high-end crank set system from the main stream manufacturers has been stiff enough for years. Just because something flexes doesn't mean it's going to make a discernible difference in performance. It's the same as the old frame stiffness argument. How much do you think that flexes in combination with your wheels and tires when sprinting? Crank flex will disappear into the background noise.

I suggest you find your guy and put him up against Pettachi, Cipo, McEwen Boonen, etc. and prove your point it actually matters.

BTW, ceramic bearings in bike wheels is another of "one of those" scams.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:52 am 
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But stiffness makes a difference to the feel of the bike, which for many buying a bike, is more important to many than performance.

When you feel like you're flying up a hill or the most powerful sprinter in the world, then you get satisfaction out of your investment (regardless of your actually performance).

Stiffness is also a good motivating factor to train.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:06 pm 
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divve wrote:
The BB stiffness argument is moot. For the record carbon Record is as stiff as the old DA 9 Octalink and it still doesn't matter. Every high-end crank set system from the main stream manufacturers has been stiff enough for years. Just because something flexes doesn't mean it's going to make a discernible difference in performance. It's the same as the old frame stiffness argument. How much do you think that flexes in combination with your wheels and tires when sprinting? Crank flex will disappear into the background noise.

I suggest you find your guy and put him up against Pettachi, Cipo, McEwen Boonen, etc. and prove your point it actually matters.

BTW, ceramic bearings in bike wheels is another of "one of those" scams.



the true test would be to put DA cranks on this guys bikes and ask them later if they feel any difference.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:30 pm 
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Pettachi had DA cranks and Cipo as well. It I haven't seen anyone get faster or slower relatively to each other because of it. You really think a top sprinter would use anything that would make him slower with such a small margin between a win and loss?

When you begin to factor the power of suggestion into a logical argument the possibilities are infinite. In that instance, I can also state that Campagnolo carbon cranks look much better than DA, and therefore they deliver better performance.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:55 pm 
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Divve, have you used them?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:15 pm 
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divve wrote:
Pettachi had DA cranks and Cipo as well. It I haven't seen anyone get faster or slower relatively to each other because of it. You really think a top sprinter would use anything that would make him slower with such a small margin between a win and loss?

When you begin to factor the power of suggestion into a logical argument the possibilities are infinite. In that instance, I can also state that Campagnolo carbon cranks look much better than DA, and therefore they deliver better performance.


If campy cranks and BB are so good, why does Pettachi have his own BB?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:16 pm 
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they use what they get $$ to use. what i told you was to ask them what crankset is stiffer.i didnt said they will make you slower or faster, but the difference in stifness is very, very noticiable.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:10 pm 
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:exactly:

What's important ot the buyer is the feel of the bike. We don't buy a frame if we know it's going to flex like a wet noddle, why accept a relatively flexy crank?

Most riders who don't race want a stiff, responsive and durable bike, which hopefully will make them feel fast and motivated to train. Look, image and cost are also factors, but enjoying their time on the bike (feeling fast) is usually more important.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:09 pm 
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zakeen wrote:
If campy cranks and BB are so good, why does Pettachi have his own BB?


It's only because of the new version of the Dogma. You buy everything marketing thinks up? Really, this is getting kind of silly. Have you looked at how much your feet and shoes flex when you press down on a pedal? Maybe Shimano will think of some HM carbon fiber socks for '06.....


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:18 pm 
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Bruiser wrote:
Divve, have you used them?


Yes, I've used them and I also used SI Hollowgram from Cannondale, which are even stiffer. I've also used aluminum and carbon Record. None of the cranks feel too flexy. The only clear difference is that Cannondale shifts worst and DA the best.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:09 pm 
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Bruiser wrote:
only clear difference is that Cannondale shifts worst and DA the best.

:exactly:


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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:09 pm 
  • 16.90 € (including 19% VAT)
  • 63 components


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