Hmmmm Garmin, really not my cup of tea. So there goes that idea. will stick with my Powertap now. As a comapny Garmin really know how to sap every last penny out of you. There business model is a sort of trapesium. Once you are in there just keep goughing up.
Have had several arguments with them about licensing cost and such, so have a garmin 705 lying round. so would like to see what plans they come up with to make you pay mega bucks to use their powermeter.
New powermeter rumours
Moderator: robbosmans
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
kervelo wrote:The pricing is also important: the price of the garmin-metrigear pedals should not exceed the price of a simple powertap wheel too much. After all, the rear wheel is even easier to change from one bike to another than a pair of pedals.
I also hope it hits its initial price point of $1000. It would be a market killer at that level.
While a wheels is just as easy to change than pedals, with the PT you are still stuck with the same wheel. Pedals for the win with the fact you can use any frame and any wheels you want. Makes it nice when you have several different pairs of wheels and different frames with different BB/crank setups.
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."
53x12 wrote:kervelo wrote:The pricing is also important: the price of the garmin-metrigear pedals should not exceed the price of a simple powertap wheel too much. After all, the rear wheel is even easier to change from one bike to another than a pair of pedals.
I also hope it hits its initial price point of $1000. It would be a market killer at that level.
While a wheels is just as easy to change than pedals, with the PT you are still stuck with the same wheel. Pedals for the win with the fact you can use any frame and any wheels you want. Makes it nice when you have several different pairs of wheels and different frames with different BB/crank setups.
Cuts both ways though. If Metrigear/Garmin produce a product that is compatible with "your" pedal - the one you prefer to use - you're fine. If they don't, you SOL.
2010 availability? What are you guys smoking? Be surprised to see a solid functional version available in even limited numbers by late 2011. Pro tour teams might get some for early testing.
$1000 price point? Be nice but I doubt it.
Price to compete with PT wheels? They don't have to do this. *If* it works out and has similar reliability to PT/ SRM / Quarq then it's a far superior product to the powertap and arguably better than the cranks (maybe). They can price higher than PT and still get the product to sell well.
One big issue with pedal PMs is going to be types of failures. With a crank based PM if I break an arm I move the PM to a new arm. If the rings wear out I put on new rings. BB wears out I replace the BB. So other than total failure of the PM there isn't much to worry about breaking and I can replace the wear parts easily.
Pedals OTOH, if I break or bend a spindle I'm toast. And rebuilding some pedals is tricky to impossible. Garmin will need to sort out how they'll handle those issues and make spare parts, rebuild kits, etc available. This is one thing in favor of a Speedplay platform. Can replace everything except the spindles for $100. That is a lot if the pedals cost $125, but if they cost $1500 with the strain gauge package epoxied in then $100 rebuild is a different story.
Negativity aside, I hope we see these soon. But I expect to be riding my Quarqs in 2011.
--Mark
$1000 price point? Be nice but I doubt it.
Price to compete with PT wheels? They don't have to do this. *If* it works out and has similar reliability to PT/ SRM / Quarq then it's a far superior product to the powertap and arguably better than the cranks (maybe). They can price higher than PT and still get the product to sell well.
One big issue with pedal PMs is going to be types of failures. With a crank based PM if I break an arm I move the PM to a new arm. If the rings wear out I put on new rings. BB wears out I replace the BB. So other than total failure of the PM there isn't much to worry about breaking and I can replace the wear parts easily.
Pedals OTOH, if I break or bend a spindle I'm toast. And rebuilding some pedals is tricky to impossible. Garmin will need to sort out how they'll handle those issues and make spare parts, rebuild kits, etc available. This is one thing in favor of a Speedplay platform. Can replace everything except the spindles for $100. That is a lot if the pedals cost $125, but if they cost $1500 with the strain gauge package epoxied in then $100 rebuild is a different story.
Negativity aside, I hope we see these soon. But I expect to be riding my Quarqs in 2011.
--Mark
-
deltasierra
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:41 pm
Seriously, $1000?
They should be gunning for sub $500, w/o head unit. At $1000, I'd pick any of the current options over a pedal-based system.
They should be gunning for sub $500, w/o head unit. At $1000, I'd pick any of the current options over a pedal-based system.
si1ver wrote:I am just curious to know if the mountain bike pedals will be applicable for this .
Speedplay? The devil's always in the details, but I personally don't see an issue with either pedal: the spindles look similar to the road spindles to my eye.
Greg66 wrote:Cuts both ways though. If Metrigear/Garmin produce a product that is compatible with "your" pedal - the one you prefer to use - you're fine. If they don't, you SOL.
I know we all have our own quirks, but I'm sure if you really want the Metrigear you could learn to like a new pedal and make it "yours." It is fun to try new things.
-
Ritterview
- Posts: 557
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:28 am
- Location: Northern California
Speedplay pedals have their advantages, but there is no getting around that the cleats are huge, and lousy to walk on. And most shoes don't have four holes, so you have to add an adapter plate. The point is no one pedal type will do it for everyone, and so here's hoping the Vector will have several pedal offerings.
GrahamB wrote:rruff wrote: You need to two complete meters (each pedal) plus they need to communicate... probably wirelessly... to the cpu. Hard to fit all that into a tiny space...
If it was actually on the spindle, hard wiring it to an electronics pack elsewhere on the crank might be doable... but for the other reasons, it still seems like a dumb idea. Aren't the elastic elements in most strain gauges aluminium? That's not going to work for pedal spindles...
There's semiconductor alternatives to Al foil gauges.
-
Ritterview
- Posts: 557
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:28 am
- Location: Northern California
A lot of interesting, pertinent and timely information at the DC Rainmaker Blog.
Analysis and Discussion with Garmin and MetriGear about new Vector Power Meter
Analysis and Discussion with Garmin and MetriGear about new Vector Power Meter
I guess this is the primary PM technology discussion thread?
Analysis and Discussion with Garmin and MetriGear about new Vector Power Meter
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/09/anal ... n-and.html
Some quotes:
So it sounds like they are shooting for 50g in addition to the weight of the pedals. That's huge compared to the weight of a PT over a normal rear hub.
Also goes on to talk about some of the stress and life testing they done. Future of ANT+. Price.
EDIT: beaten by Ritterview.
Analysis and Discussion with Garmin and MetriGear about new Vector Power Meter
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/09/anal ... n-and.html
Some quotes:
he small case he pulled from his pocket showed the evolution of just the last year’s worth of designs, and showed a pretty significant decrease in size – by probably close to 50%. It was also significantly smaller than the Look/Polar final prototype axle.
The silicon based design is much more resilient to changes in environment than typical strain gauges used today, thus like the Polar system it will be largely immune to needing constant calibration. However, Clark did note that they are looking into the ability to allow users to zero the the unit from standard ANT+ head units.
The design will include two pedals and two transmitter units – with a total system target weight of under 50g. The transmitter units will sit just on the outside edge of the crank arm (closest to shoe), nearest the spindle and will attach directly via the spindle threading. In the demo he showed me he used the example of the current Garmin ANT+ foot-pod as about the same size and internal electronics as the Vector system.
So it sounds like they are shooting for 50g in addition to the weight of the pedals. That's huge compared to the weight of a PT over a normal rear hub.
Also goes on to talk about some of the stress and life testing they done. Future of ANT+. Price.
EDIT: beaten by Ritterview.
He also has some good photos and a writeup of the Look/Polar setup:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/09/pola ... ssion.html
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/09/pola ... ssion.html
I spoke with both Clark and Dave of Metrigear today as well and can confirm that everything they told me (and trust me, I pestered) is pretty much as they told DC Rainmaker.
The one interesting thing that I was told by both Clark, Dave and one of the gents from Garmin is that they (Garmin) did not buy Metrigear just to shift a few thousand or a couple of ten thousand units. Garmin really does want to reach beyond the elite level cyclist and even the weight weenie market (hardcore "amateur" riders, my term, not theirs) and make power a ubiquitous thing well within the reach of all enthusiast cyclist who are avid recreational riders and up. They're not going to reach the masses being priced like an SRM, Quarq, Powertap or Look / Polar. Thus I'd have to agree with the assumption that pricing will probably continue to be around the same as previously mentioned, though none was given for obvious reasons.
Another thing noted was that people who were stopping by the Garmin booth really seemed to only want to talk about two things -- The Edge 800 (looks fabulous in person and was fun to monkey around with) and questions regarding the Metrigear purchase and its future.
With regards to the Look / Polar combination I was surprised at how big the dongle was on the demo pedal they had out. I was also somewhat confused that they said they had working demos in the field already amongst the professional peloton yet showed no working demo. Metrigear had their Frankerider last year showing a working demo which is what made them so intriguing. Look and Polar say they've got stuff out there but showed nothing that I saw at either the Look booth or the Polar booth other than a demo pedal to look at and touch.
Oh yeah, their price still sucks royale with cheese too.
Below are a few photos of the Look / Polar pedal.
The one interesting thing that I was told by both Clark, Dave and one of the gents from Garmin is that they (Garmin) did not buy Metrigear just to shift a few thousand or a couple of ten thousand units. Garmin really does want to reach beyond the elite level cyclist and even the weight weenie market (hardcore "amateur" riders, my term, not theirs) and make power a ubiquitous thing well within the reach of all enthusiast cyclist who are avid recreational riders and up. They're not going to reach the masses being priced like an SRM, Quarq, Powertap or Look / Polar. Thus I'd have to agree with the assumption that pricing will probably continue to be around the same as previously mentioned, though none was given for obvious reasons.
Another thing noted was that people who were stopping by the Garmin booth really seemed to only want to talk about two things -- The Edge 800 (looks fabulous in person and was fun to monkey around with) and questions regarding the Metrigear purchase and its future.
With regards to the Look / Polar combination I was surprised at how big the dongle was on the demo pedal they had out. I was also somewhat confused that they said they had working demos in the field already amongst the professional peloton yet showed no working demo. Metrigear had their Frankerider last year showing a working demo which is what made them so intriguing. Look and Polar say they've got stuff out there but showed nothing that I saw at either the Look booth or the Polar booth other than a demo pedal to look at and touch.
Oh yeah, their price still sucks royale with cheese too.
Below are a few photos of the Look / Polar pedal.
- Attachments
-
-
-
We posted a couple more pics of the LOOK/Polar setup on TriRig. I've got no new info beyond what's already been posted, but despite the drawbacks of the LOOK/Polar, I'm glad to see a second player in the powermeter/pedal game. More competition = better products, and better prices.
http://www.tririg.com/articles.php?id=1 ... owermeters
http://www.tririg.com/articles.php?id=1 ... owermeters
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
The weight of the Vector is with batteries. The electronics in the axle is at most a few grams. I don't know if Garmin is going to provide Ti axles, but if not, there's an opportunity cost for using steel axles.
Saris is 402 grams, AFAIK w/o batteries which add a few more. Listings shows plenty of rear hubs at least 200 grams lighter than this.
So I don't see how you can find the two even comparable.
The Vector pedal body may be heavier than a weenie pedal, but hopefully they'll go back to covering Speedplay within a decent time frame, and Speedplay pedals w/ 4-hole shoes are very weenie-compatible.
Saris is 402 grams, AFAIK w/o batteries which add a few more. Listings shows plenty of rear hubs at least 200 grams lighter than this.
So I don't see how you can find the two even comparable.
The Vector pedal body may be heavier than a weenie pedal, but hopefully they'll go back to covering Speedplay within a decent time frame, and Speedplay pedals w/ 4-hole shoes are very weenie-compatible.
