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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Wyoming
Side to side play in non-driveside crank despite proper installation. Wondered if anyone had seen this thread http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=468937 over at bikeforums? The first video shows what I experience on my crankset. If you have seen the thread, wonder if you would care to comment. I have read many threads here about UT bearings but had not seen this before and it seems to make sense to me.


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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:38 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:39 am 
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:03 pm
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Location: Back in the saddle...
Just had this problem pop up on my bike a week ago. My mechanic thought it was just a bad non-drive side bearing, but now I see it may be a problem inherent in the design. Does anyone have a link to possible solutions for this? Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:44 am 
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Location: Wyoming
Did you go to this web site www.roguemechanic.com ? He used combination of shims. But still wonder
a) If that is the best "solution?"
b) If so - where would one gets such shims?
c) Would it be okay to run two wavy washers in there?
d) What damage, if any,would occur if one did nothing?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:37 am 
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Posts: 1071
Location: New Zealand
kdviner70 wrote:
Did you go to this web site www.roguemechanic.com ? He used combination of shims. But still wonder
a) If that is the best "solution?"
b) If so - where would one gets such shims?
c) Would it be okay to run two wavy washers in there?
d) What damage, if any,would occur if one did nothing?


I wrote about this a couple of years back when the design was released, there is some info you might find useful on page two here:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23321&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=ultratorque&start=15

I've yet to hear of anyone actually notice this lateral movement while riding, however I'm not a fan of the design because of this movement.

Generally what occurs is the bearing moves laterally in the cup and polishes the inside of the cup. At some point this will result in the cup not correctly supporting the bearing but I've yet to see this. Generally all that happens is a creaking noise from grit / grim which has made it's way into the cup.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Wyoming
Thanks for pointing out your earlier thread!

I think I understand the issues. But since you said you've never heard of anyone experiencing this while riding, it makes me wonder if there might be something else going on. I definitely feel an aperiodic "clunking" while pedaling hard when the bike is in the trainer and even sometimes when pedaling hard on the road (as the mech's client experienced in the thread on bikeforum). In my case it is more noticeable when using the large chainring.

FWIW - this clunking seems to have arisen when I put on my second set of cups. The first set was torqued on and the second set hand tightened only but with the loctite 222.

I guess the bottom line is that it is disconcerting but not a terminal condition.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:26 am 
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Location: Back in the saddle...
I definitely get a "clunking" noise, and it pops up under stress, i.e. most noticeable when I'm climbing seated. It actually seems to disappear when standing, although it could be I'm just not paying as much attention to it. I read the roguemechanics website, and it didn't seem as though he completely fixed the problem. Was I missing something?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:54 am 
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Posts: 68
I've used copper grease in the bearing cups which seems to have got rid of the creaking. Just swapped the bearings out for ceramic hybrids as well, the original bearings were stuffed with only a few thousand miles of use.

I can't say I'm impressed with the design.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:33 am 
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Location: New Zealand
In the past I've tried a couple of things to solve this. You need to be very careful if you try either of these methods as you don't want to over-space and either damage the bearings or worse cause the hirth joint to not correctly engage (there is a serious injury risk here.)

The downside of both of these methods is a reduced amount of thread in the frame. For some setups this will be OK as there will still be plenty of thread insertion, in other case where the BB shell is quite narrow this might cause some problems. This is a hack: It should be tackled by someone experienced and who can put some thought into what they're doing to spot any potential problems along the way. The factory setup works just fine in 99% of cases so don't jump into these solutions if you're not having problems that you're sure are related to the wave washer. In most cases removing the cups from the frame, cleaning and greasing everything and re-installing is enough to get rid of any noises.

1) Fitting spacers between the frame and NDS cup. This works well. I've got access to a lathe so turning up spacers in 0.1mm increments was possible for me to do. Without a lathe you'd either have to cut shimstock or botch it somehow.

Basically install the driveside BB cup to torque but only finger-tighten the NDS cup. Fit the cranks as per usual except with the wave washer removed (and you won't need the driveside c-clip either.) Now unwind the NDS cup by hand until it's snugly sitting outboard against the bearing. Measure the gap between the BB cup and frame. Lets say it's 2.0mm.

Machine some spacers starting at 1.7mm and moving upwards in as many increments as you can be bothered making, lets say 0.1mm jumps. Fit the 1.7mm spacer and check for lateral movement, if it exists (and it should) then fit the 1.8mm and re-test. Keep going upwards until the lateral movement disappears then go back down to where you had a small amount of movement. This is important as you want the hirth to fully close.

Potential downside here is that the NDS bearing isn't being supported on it's face, only on its OD. I don't think this really matters though because the amount of movement is small (less than 0.1mm) and this shouldn't be too much worse than the wave washer supporting the faces.

2) Old Skool locking ring. Remember cup and cone bottom brackets? How they had a fixed cup on the DS and a floating cup on the NDS with a lockring? Well you need to find one of those lockrings that is nice and thin (not easy.)

Install the DS cup to spec, place the lockring behind the NDS cup and install in the frame. Install cranks without wave washer again (you won't need the driveside c-clip either), and torque the hirth. Now check for lateral movement. Have some? Good. Don't have any? Bad...find a narrower lockring.

Unscrew the NDS cup by hand until snug against the bearing. Now tighten the lockring against the frame as per cup and cone bottom bracket. Ride bike with smile.

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New Zealand handbuilt wheels


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:46 pm
Posts: 965
Location: Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom
boysa wrote:
Just had this problem pop up on my bike a week ago. My mechanic thought it was just a bad non-drive side bearing, but now I see it may be a problem inherent in the design. Does anyone have a link to possible solutions for this? Thanks!


Shimano?!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:16 am 
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Location: Lyon, France
boysa wrote:
I definitely get a "clunking" noise, and it pops up under stress, i.e. most noticeable when I'm climbing seated.


Exactly what I had. Drive side bearing stuffed... when I checked, the seals had popped out of both bearings... :(

The bearing is the same size as in the Shimano design... I think it may just be that Campag use rubbish bearings :(

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Graham


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:40 am 
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Posts: 1071
Location: New Zealand
GrahamB wrote:
The bearing is the same size as in the Shimano design... I think it may just be that Campag use rubbish bearings :(


The ones I've seen are SKF...I know they offer a range of bearing qualities but it's unlike them to be rubbish?!?

Other than the bearing's seal there is nothing on the outside of the bearings to stop contamination like in the Shimano BBs. That's a messy area of the bike, especially on the driveside where you have chainlube, degrease and bike wash flowing over the area.

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Wheelworks.co.nz

New Zealand handbuilt wheels


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:29 pm 
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The use of spacers as suggested by rogue is a bad idea and so is any "solution" that defeats the purpose of the wavy washer - to provide a specific preload on the bearings.

Rogue doesn't seem to understand how the sytem works and certainly does not know how to properly check axial play. It's an avoidable part of the design that a large enough side force on the left side will cause the wavy washer to compress and produce some axial movement to the right, as limited by the spring clip.

The purpose of pressing the bearings onto the spindle and using a slip fit into the cups is to eliminate the fretting damage that can occur to the spindle, using a design where the bearing slips over the spindle and press fits into the cup. It's better to trash a cheap bearing cup than an expensive spindle (with unseparable crankarm). If you have a lot of miles on some UT cups and really think the are worn, new ones are cheap. Upon reassembly, I'd heavily grease the ID of the cup, to minimize wear. Cleaning and regreasing the cups at mid season might not be a bad idea either and would take little time.

If the BB shell width is not within the specified 67.2-68.8mm range, then the shell should either be faced to reduce the width or a thin washer placed behind the left cup to bring it into spec, or toward the high side if desired.

If you really think the possibility of some side play is a problem, you could revert back to the old days and just shim the gap between left bearing and cup until there was only a small amount of axial play, just like you would have done in the old days with right side cup and lockring. The process would be time consuming and you'd probably need some shims at thin as .002 inch or so, depending on how the shims stack up. It's NOT something I would ever consider doing.

I suppose you could also place an approriately sized O-ring into the gap where the wavy washer is supposed to go, but there again, it would take some effort to get the right combination of O-ring and some shims to produce a proper preload tension. A properly sized, thin flat washer might also be needed to press against the bearing. Once again, NOT something I'm going to do.

FWIW, after 3500 miles on my UT crank, it seems to be working perfectly. No axial play and no noises.


Last edited by DaveS on Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Wyoming
Well the forum has no symbol for "head spinning wildly on torso," so I guess I'll just say - Man this is confusing. I guess I'll reread both threads again after the spinning stops! :)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:05 pm 
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kdviner70 wrote:
Well the forum has no symbol for "head spinning wildly on torso," so I guess I'll just say - Man this is confusing. I guess I'll reread both threads again after the spinning stops! :)


I gave rogue my opinion yesterday on another forum. His method of checking for play is totally wrong. Yes, you can push on the center of the left side crankarm (not the end) and compress the wavy washer. That just means it's working properly. It must have a minimum 1.6mm of compression range, to allow for deviations in BB width.

Cups with a lot of miles and/or abusive use with the intrusion of water and grit with no maintenance could exhibit some wear that might allow a small amount of movement at the ends of the crankarms. Afterall, the bearings are a slip fit into the cups, even when new.

Perhaps people have forgotten how hard it was to adjust those old loose ball BBs. They were always too tight or loose enough that you could feel some significant play at the end of the crankarms.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Wyoming
So Dave I reread the threads.

My cups are brand new (well 200 miles). Bearings have about 3500 miles on them The bike has never been ridden in the rain. These cups hand tightened and secured with loctitie 222. Fixing bolt torqued to specs. Merlin Extralight frameset

Bottom line.

If I can move my crankset latterly as Roguemechainc did in his video from the nondrive side, in your opinion do I have anything to worry about?


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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:10 pm 


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