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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:48 pm 
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Posts: 381
GonaSovereign wrote:
Adding an 11th in the back just makes me assume Campy can't think of anything new.


Obviously you have seen the new gruppos yet, so tell us, please.


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Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:48 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:02 pm 
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bcheung wrote:
I measure 12 links with a ruler. I also lube/clean after every ride. Lube is cheaper than a chain.
not if you used it after every ride. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:50 pm 
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I use a homemade lubricant. It's cheaper.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:23 pm 
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Location: Kent: UK
I really don't understand peoples obsession with being so anti or so pro 11 sprockets. Of course it's pointless. The bicycle, was already perfected 50 years ago, but everyon wants lighter, stronger, more, because the animal in us says it must be better.

Average speed of 1957 Tour de France 34.520kmh

Average speed of 2007 Tour de France 38.98kmh


So basically 10 more gears, EPO, Carbon Fibre, massively lighter bikes, race radio, decent tarmac, decent tyres, aero wheels, shorter races, better hotels, team buses, showers, non-chaffing bib shorts, hi-tec fabrics, maltodextrin, glucose, fruit and veg and padded bar tape have all equalled a grand total of just over 4kmh in the biggest race of them all!

Big sodding deal, but I still want this:


Image

instead of this:

Image

even if i won't ever go one kmh faster.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:34 pm 
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Posts: 2527
Those harping about the lack of "innovation" need to define it, or post examples of what NEEDS to be changed. Otherwise you're not saying anything.

Some people seem to think that the only innovation ever made was the introduction of STI brake/shift levers. Shifters that work even better and are cheaper isn't seen as innovation, more cogs in not innovation and since Mavic sold electronic shifting a long time ago, that's not innovation either. Innovation seems tough to come by.

If any of you were manufacturing engineers, responsible for making a 5.5mm wide chain that's reliable and reasonably priced, you'd appreciate the fact that this alone is innovation.

All the details of the changes to Campy and Shimano shifters isn't available yet. I expect to see brake lever reach adjustment on both and will be disappointed if it's not included. I've been reducing the reach of Campy levers for years.

Whihc reminds me, does anyone know if the brake lever on the new 7900 shifters swings side to side to shift to larger cogs? It sure doesn't look possible from the pictures I've seen.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:35 pm 
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Someone mentioned that Campag doesn't release premature parts that aren't tested well, but over the last few years this has not necessarily been the case. The first carbon cranks were problematic and were redesigned before they even reached the 2nd year of production. Chains have recently undergone some changes since earlier versions of the ultranarrow were failing more often. Campag internally mentioned that they had fears that the UT cranks would suffer from some issues such as creaks yet they still released it anyway and now just search this board to see that more and more people are reporting creaking UT cranks along with bearing issues.(don't get me wrong, I'm not singling out Campag for doing this, it seems more and more companies are doing this and many to a degree far, far worse than when Campag rushes something out)

What I've heard from some fairly reliable sources is that the addition of the 11th cog was a last minute thought to give them something big and tangible to sell as an improvement. I'm told that the original plan called for electronic to be ready. Since it failed and Shimano is known to have major changes to their group in addition to the electronic group, Campag felt they needed something.(Much the same reason the UT crank was rushed)

On the upside it's nice to know that the price of Chorus and Record won't change all that much(although we did see price increases again this month). However SuperRecord is insane. I don't want to give any real details but suffice it to say if I were to put it on my Parlee Z4, the group would be more expensive than my frame, fork, headset, carbon clamp, bar, stem and pedals together. :shock:

I don't see 11speed as a practical way to run a single chainring. A chain that thin won't hold up well to running the width of the cassette. I think perhaps it's best application would be in straight block cassettes for TT.

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Last edited by madcow on Fri May 30, 2008 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:43 pm 
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toyota wrote:
bcheung wrote:
I measure 12 links with a ruler. I also lube/clean after every ride. Lube is cheaper than a chain.
not if you used it after every ride. :roll:


Home brew lube costs almost nothing - a gallon can be made for little more that the price of some four ounce bottles of chain lube.

As for measuring a chain with a ruler, that's totally adequate for some brands of chains, like Shimano, that elongate quickly, but pointless with a well maintained Campy chain. I've had Campy chains with so little elongation after 6,000 miles that it was barely measureable with a precision 12" scale. That chain was still shot, with lots of roller wear and increased sideplay. That same chain also wore one steel cog enough to casue chain skip with a new chain. The point is that chain wear measurement is not as simple as some people think and a lot of the common recommendations on when to change a chain are wrong.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:27 pm 
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Location: Eire
The only benefit I can see is for Campag to eliminate that stupid gapin their ratios. However, they could do that with 10 speed if they would just produce a twelve to twentyone cassette. Thats the reason that the only bike I run shimano on is my TT bike.

PS 4kph is a pretty big difference in average speed.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Location: Kent: UK
Not when the bikes were twice as heavy with half as many gears and was over 1000km longer it ain't!

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Last edited by hockinsk on Fri May 30, 2008 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:34 am
Posts: 361
Location: spin class
hockinsk wrote:
I really don't understand peoples obsession with being so anti or so pro 11 sprockets. Of course it's pointless. The bicycle, was already perfected 50 years ago, but everyon wants lighter, stronger, more, because the animal in us says it must be better.

Average speed of 1957 Tour de France 34.520kmh

Average speed of 2007 Tour de France 38.98kmh


So basically 10 more gears, EPO, Carbon Fibre, massively lighter bikes, race radio, decent tarmac, decent tyres, aero wheels, shorter races, better hotels, team buses, showers, non-chaffing bib shorts, hi-tec fabrics, maltodextrin, glucose, fruit and veg and padded bar tape have all equalled a grand total of just over 4kmh in the biggest race of them all!

Big sodding deal, but I still want this:



even if i won't ever go one kmh faster.
isnt the tour longer now with more climbing compared to 1957??


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:40 pm 
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Posts: 635
madcow, how did e-record fail. several protour teams have been using e-record this year at all the races.

i don't understand why campy is INCREASING prices since 90% of their products are now produced in low-cost Romania. Sram will continue to gobble up market share.



madcow wrote:
What I've heard from some fairly reliable sources is that the addition of the 11th cog was a last minute thought to give them something big and tangible to sell as an improvement. I'm told that the original plan called for electronic to be ready. Since it failed and Shimano is known to have major changes to their group in addition to the electronic group, Campag felt they needed something.(Much the same reason the UT crank was rushed)

On the upside it's nice to know that the price of Chorus and Record won't change all that much(although we did see price increases again this month). However SuperRecord is insane. I don't want to give any real details but suffice it to say if I were to put it on my Parlee Z4, the group would be more expensive than my frame, fork, headset, carbon clamp, bar, stem and pedals together. :shock:

I don't see 11speed as a practical way to run a single chainring. A chain that thin won't hold up well to running the width of the cassette. I think perhaps it's best application would be in straight block cassettes for TT.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:43 pm 
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DaveS wrote:
Those harping about the lack of "innovation" need to define it, or post examples of what NEEDS to be changed. Otherwise you're not saying anything.


I did a project a while back that looked at the development of bike technology over the years. If you look hard enough, most of the ideas were first though of around 1900. At the time, the US had 2 patent offices. One dealt with bike related inventions, the other with non-bike related items.

There are different levels of innovation. there's modification type innovation which is incrimental change. Then there's genuine innovation like Ahead sets.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Pantani wrote:
The only benefit I can see is for Campag to eliminate that stupid gapin their ratios. However, they could do that with 10 speed if they would just produce a twelve to twentyone cassette. Thats the reason that the only bike I run shimano on is my TT bike.

PS 4kph is a pretty big difference in average speed.


Which gap is that? A 12-23 is straight block up to the 19, then you get a 21-23. The 19-21 shift is 10% change, while the 12-13 is an 8% change, so I assume you think you need a 20T? You must riding pretty slow if you spend much time in the 19-21 range.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:57 pm 
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zebragonzo wrote:
DaveS wrote:
There are different levels of innovation. there's modification type innovation which is incrimental change. Then there's genuine innovation like Ahead sets.


There's a perfect example. In one person's opinion the aheadset is "innovation". I like it, but I've read as many posts bitching about it as "unnecessary" as any I can think of. The retro guys would all have us on 5 speed friction, with quill stems and steel frames.

I've done a few calculations that show there is no difference in the handle height produced with a common 84 degree stem and the typical quill stem of years ago. I guess people liked to stop on the road and raise of lower the bars a bit. I like the superior control of the headset bearing adjustment with threadless. Wouldn't use a quill if you paid me.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:04 pm 
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spartan wrote:
madcow, how did e-record fail. several protour teams have been using e-record this year at all the races.

i don't understand why campy is INCREASING prices since 90% of their products are now produced in low-cost Romania. Sram will continue to gobble up market share.


I think there was a little misunderstanding there. I didn't mean that to read as electronic has failed, it's my understanding that they are progressing well with it's development. I meant to say the plan of having it ready for sale this year failed. Work on the group continues and it may not be that much longer until we see it available.

Part of why Campag is increasing it's price is relative to your location in the world. Here in the U.S. it continues to go up because the dollar continues to go down. Also the cost of production even in the far east is rising.(As exampled by Reynolds announcement last week that all of their products would go up by 10%)

The other reason that I think Campag is pushing the price up as much as they can is to offset losses from a drop in OE sales due to Sram. In years past Campag was reserved for the topshelf OE group of lots of brands. Now many of those brands are choosing Sram Red for the top shelf bike. The pricing structure allows manufacturers to put a group(Sram Red) that has a higher retail price than Record onto a bike and still sell the bike retail for less than if it had Record on it, so it would be hard for a manufacturer to not use it OE. Even if Sram is taking a loss to do this with Red it's allowing them to penetrate well into the OE market and is establishing them quite quickly. It's really quite clever and has been proven to work. I know a few other companies have taken losses on products just to get them saturated into the market, which in many consumers minds establishes them as sought after and quality.

If you ask me Campag would have in the long run been better off with a management change and a new market strategy rather than adding another cog to their groups.

Some people think I'm anti-Campag(so take my opinions with a grain of salt), which actually is not true. I like Campag as a product, I just hate to see something with such heritage and tradition being taken in the direction that it has gone over the last several years. I'd go out on a limb and say without some serious internal changes the company may end up needing a bailout in the next few years.

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