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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:43 am 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5795
Location: Belgium
Hi,

The problem (if one can call it that way) with using butyl patches to fix a latex inner tube is that you often can feel the patched area as a hard spot when riding the bike.
As if there was a little rock inside the tyre so to speak.
At least you can with tyres of sufficient suppleness (high true TPI count).

This in turn makes the patched area stand out of round with respect of the rest of the tyre's casing causing premature wear in that particular area.

Ciao, ;)

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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:43 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:24 pm
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I looked fairly extensively for myself, but couldn't find any latex tubes with a long valve (long enough for a 60mm rim). Do any exist? I'd rather not have to use valve extenders.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:36 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

The longest I know of is 60mm long so that's still too short.
Personally I prefer the short stem types as I can fit an aluminium extender which is much lighter than the typical bronze stems.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:44 pm 
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Have read through this thread before, and a bit today, but had an odd puncture and was looking for some expert insight.

Swapped some 23 mm Veloflex Master tires from one wheelset to another. Have Vredestein latex tubes in the tires, have been in there for a few months, no problems.

Swapped to the new wheelset, the tubes stayed pretty nicely within the tire casing, made install/swapping pretty easy. Made sure the tube wasn't pinch between the rim, inflated a bit, worked the tire back and forth, no tire showing. Inflated them today to around 100 psi. Around an hour later was sitting at my desk, bike across the room...when I heard a wheeze, then a hissing. Not the "gun pop" of the tube being pinched against the rim wall.

Upon inspection there is a decent sized hole (not huge) near the valve, where there is a "sleeve" I suppose where the tube is joined. It's right at the seam.

The noise and the location of the hole in the middle of the tube and at the junction makes it seem like it wasn't pinched between the tire and rim. But, after using these for months without issues, seems unlikely it would give way today. However, I did have these wheels hanging unused for a few weeks. Could the tube have gotten brittle or something?

As I wrote, a bit confused. I cannot fully rule out amateur installation, but I did check around the entire tire and, since these was a swap, the tube was pretty nicely nestled within the casing already.

Maybe I just missed it, but there wasn't that telltale "pop" sound. Ideas? Oh, and has anyone had success patching the Vred tubes at the seam? (I have successfully patched a few puncture latex tubes, but not at a seam.)

Thank you!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:20 am
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nayr497 wrote:
Upon inspection there is a decent sized hole (not huge) near the valve, where there is a "sleeve" I suppose where the tube is joined. It's right at the seam.


I had the same type of hole develop on my rear Challenge Corsa tube. Tire lost ~50psi during a 3 hour ride. When I inspected the front tube it had the same type of hole developing. That's when I decided not to use latex tubes for training. I've been using Michelin lightweight butyl tubes now for ~10 months with zero issues. My theory is that the "divot" created where the presta valve is glued onto the tube creates a "stress riser" which eventually rubs through the tube.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:55 pm
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Hmm, a very strong theory. Thanks for the reply.

I just wonder about the timing. Had been riding this tube/tire for many months, wonder why it happened upon wheel switching. Maybe just pure coincidence.

Took some practice installing them when I first switched to latex tubes but it has been a couple years now that I've been riding them with Veloflex and Vittoria open clinchers with very few problems, very few flats. And despite occasional PITA's periods, like now, the ride quality is worth putting up with it, for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:18 pm 
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nayr497 wrote:
And despite occasional PITA's periods, like now, the ride quality is worth putting up with it, for me.


That happened 3 weeks after installation for me. Definitely not worth the hassle for me (I ride 150-200 miles a week.) Ride felt slightly better with latex tube, like removing 3-4psi from a butyl tube.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 739
Ah, a new thread in the making. What causes latex tubes to pop?

Sadly, they usually fail because of user error. I know, I've said that about other equipment failures, and we're all immortal gods and we know how to solder the tips of our brake cables and hone the brake blocks for our carbon rims. But here are the kinds of things that make latex tubes look at you and go "pfffttttt."

First, holes at or near the stem:

1. Remember that your latex tube is extremely supple (that's why you bought it) and thus will take almost any shape, even if it isn't good for us (like the contortionist that throws his back every time he has sex). If you don't seat your tube all the way into the rim bed, the tube will wrap right around itself and kiss up against the valve stem or even work its way into the valve stem hole in the rim. As you can probably imagine, something will quickly pinch the tube and make it hiss and die. That's likely what happened to you.

2. If you have a rim tape that is too unsupportive or is stretched or simply oversized at the valve hole, the tube will try to get in there. Most rim strips are crap. Use one that really protects your tube.

3. Unless you have a wider rim, you are squeezing two sidewalls plus a valve stem into a not very big area. Give one point to 23 mm wide rims. If you just have to use a narrower rim, pick your tubes carefully. And remember that you still have to seat them properly. Sometimes the problem is that there is simply no room for the stem. Sometimes the problem is that you have to pull it by the valve stem to be sure it is seated, but you undo all the effort when you push a pump head onto it. At that point, read #1.

Holes away from the stem:

1. You didn't check your tube to be sure it was 100% inside the casing before you inflated.

2. You didn't recheck your tube at about 2 bar to be sure it was 100% inside the casing before you inflated rest of the way.

3. You didn't recheck your tube at full pressure to be sure something wasn't sticking out or looking lumpy.

4. Get the point?

5. If you got a glass cut in the tread that left a small hole through the casing, a latex tube can work its way right through that hole and then either die quietly or go out with a bang. Boot every cut that shows through the tire at all with a real boot. I've used thin adhesive sail tape and I've used Tyvek, but for real protection to keep that inner tube from squirming through, nothing works like a Rema patch or a piece of old lightweight tire casing.

6. If it can do it under the tread, it can do so on a sidewall. More easily in fact.

7. Snakebites. Enough said. It may not look like one because latex tube don't always give classic snakebite patterns, but if the hole is on the side, guess what?

8. Check your sidewalls for brake block wear. Equipment manufacturers keep trying to improve braking performance by making brake blocks bigger, especially top to bottom. That makes it hard to keep the edge of the block away from the sidewall. If you are using big tires with more tire clearance, you may be at the limit of your brake shoe adjustment and cheating on this a bit.

9. Latex tubes don't like to be folded on themselves. This doesn't make them go bad right away, but a month later, you'll get the lesson. And since latex tubes lose air fast, if you let your tire deflate and end up on the rim, check your tube before you reinflate -- everything could be kerflonkers under the casing.

10. And then there's just God. Sometimes He blesses you for using latex tubes. Sometimes he simply damns you. I guess it depends on whether you keep beating him in the city line sprints.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:29 am 
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Wow, that was thorough!!! Thanks for all the great info 11.4.

I'll re-read this tomorrow during the Tour stage and give it another go.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:01 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:20 am
Posts: 112
Or:

11. Install lightweight butyl tubes and don't worry about any of this stuff. Try to ignore the massive 1w of extra rolling resistance.

:)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:52 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:34 pm
Posts: 1653
Location: New York City
I user vredestein latex only, i used michy's in the past, but its been over 3 years since ive used anything else. ive never suffered a blowout and when i flat its always a slow leak which allows me to do 10 - 20 miles before i am fully flat. i would never go back to butyl tubes. the only downside to latex is pumping the tires everyday before going out and maybe a little pricier (but they flat less in my exp.).

does anyone know what FMB tubulars use as their latex tube? just got a set of these for a friend, they are super nice!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Do any of you mount new tires on the wheels (without tubes) for a couple of days ahead of installing a latex tube?

I ask because with Veloflex tires I've ridden, and I guess have broken in/stretched a bit, they are much easier to install a latex tube into. I know stretching tubulars is standard, would pre-mounting open clinchers help with tricky rim/tire combinations and latex tubes?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:37 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5795
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
Do any of you mount new tires on the wheels (without tubes) for a couple of days ahead of installing a latex tube?


With no inner tube installed the tyre isn't going to stretch so that won't help.

You could install a butyl inner tube instead if you think that would help.

I never had problem with Veloflex Open Tubulars. Does your rim require a rim strip?

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:38 pm
Posts: 84
Just wanted to say how much I like my Vredestein Latex tubes. They're v.light, roll beautifully and touch wood, I've never punctured one. Compare this to the usual 12 or so punctures (rouughly 1 per month) I used to get a year with butyl.

I use mine with Veloflex Open Corsa (23) on R-Sys SLRs.


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Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:57 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:58 am
Posts: 223
Location: Chicago
nayr497 wrote:
Do any of you mount new tires on the wheels (without tubes) for a couple of days ahead of installing a latex tube?

I ask because with Veloflex tires I've ridden, and I guess have broken in/stretched a bit, they are much easier to install a latex tube into. I know stretching tubulars is standard, would pre-mounting open clinchers help with tricky rim/tire combinations and latex tubes?


I have mounted Challenge tires without tubes to let them stretch. It does help. They are an extremely tight fit initially. I don't have problems with Veloflex tires.


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