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 Post subject: Help this man build!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:35 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Toronto
I'm looking to build a wheelset around American Classic Road Hubs... can anyone suggest a set of lightweight rims, something similar in style to Mavic Open Pro's... aa well as the spokes and nipples... I'm trying to build a wheelset with a good weight to strength ratio... Please help me out all you experienced roadies out there... Your help is much appreciated...


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 Post subject: Help this man build!
Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:41 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:49 am
Posts: 533
Location: SE USA
Hi there, and welcome to the forum.

Check out the DT Swiss RR 1.1 rim. Very nice, and similar in weight to the Mavic Open Pro. This rim has eyelets.
See http://www.dtswiss.com/index.asp?fuseaction=rims.bikedetail&id=8

Alternatively, the IRD Cadence rim is another option if you're looking for less weight. The rim is made from an alloy called Niobiumm Rodium. This rim does not feature eyelets. Weight is around 390 grams.
See http://www.interlocracing.com

Finally, the Velocity Aerohead is an excellent rim. I have logged many, many Kms on a pair of these rims with Dura-Ace hubs, and before that with AC hubs. These are around the low 400 gram mark for weight, and do not feature eyelets.
See http://www.velocityusa.com[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:58 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:45 pm
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Location: Anchorage, AK
Hi there,

Your body weight would be very helpful as well as the intended use of the wheels. (Everything, racing only, training only, etc.)

Bike Tech's rim choices is exactly what I would say too, although I think the IRD Cadence does have (single) eyelets. Keep in mind that you can build a front wheel much lighter than a rear and still have a reliable wheel set. Some folks use a lighter rim in the front, some use fewer or lighter spokes, whatever. Be creative!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:05 am 
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Location: Anchorage, AK
Oh, and BTW

The claimed weight of the cadence is 390g. Mine weighed in about 15g less! That was a nice surprise.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:35 pm
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Location: Toronto
Thanks for the suggestions guys! I was actually looking at the DT Swiss RR 1.1 rim, but I will definitely look into your other suggestions. As for my weight, I'm coming in around 180... I realize that I'm a little heavy to be a roadie... I'm actually a mountain biker just exploring the world of road, so as for the purpose of the wheelset, just the general training and possibly some racing... Let me know if this info changes anything. And can you suggest a good spoke and nipple choice... Thanks again guys!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:58 am 
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Location: Anchorage, AK
I'd go with the DT rim in the back and a Cadence rim in the front. 32 hole every where with DT Supercomp spokes and alloy nipples. Maybe DT compitition (14/15) spokes w/brass nipples on the drive side in the rear if you want them a touch more robust.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:01 am 
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Location: Anchorage, AK
Or if you want to use the same rim front and rear, then go for a 28/32 combo witht he same spoke guage as above.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:00 am 
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Location: Finland
I have pair of RR1.1's. 416/418g. My second pair of Open pro's were 444g (both)

I think Campy uses RR's in their ready build wheelsets.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:35 pm
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Location: Toronto
Thanks again guys...

And Jer, you suggested the supercomp spoke... why not the revolutions?

And finally, from your experience can you suggest a lacing pattern for front and rear.

I really appreciate your help!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:59 am 
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Location: Anchorage, AK
Two reasons.

As you are probably aware, Revos are 14/17/14 or 15/17/15 gauge and supercomps are 14/16/15. DT defines 14 gauge as 2.0mm in diameter, 15 as 1.8mm, 16 as 1.7, and 17 as 1.5mm.

The part of the spoke the most often breaks is the head (hub end.) Having a stouter gauge there will increase the longevity of your spokes. If you are using alloy nipples, 15 gauge at the threads is better than 14 gauge. This is because the weakness of alloy nipples is not the thread engagement with the spoke (they almost never strip out,) but rather the strength of the nipple when a spoke wrench is on it at high tension. At higher tensions (above 115kgf or 1150 Newtons) 14 gauge alloy nipples start to round off rather than turning on the spoke. 15 gauge nipples seem to be a little tougher due to the smaller hole drilled through them for the spoke and therefore more material contributing to the integrity of the nipple. The last reason is the super thin 17 gauge wire spokes twist very easily*. when you are trying to true you wheels the spokes just twist and twist and the nipple doesn't turn on the threads hardly at all, and not in any sort of predictable fashion. Thicker spokes resist this twisting much better and are much easier to true.

So, to sum up: 14g at the head is best because it is strongest, 15g at the nipple is better with alloy nipples, and 16 gauge is better than 17g in the middle because they don't twist as much when you are building/truing them.

*There is a tool called a Twist-Resist that was intended to prevent a spoke from twisting when you are truing wheels but it is a $30 piece of crap. It really has a hard time holding onto light gauge spokes which are the ones that twist the worst.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:04 pm 
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Location: Anchorage, AK
Lacing pattern depends on spoke count but in general I do 3x on both sides of the rear and radial or 3x in the front depending on the hub and the intended use of the wheels.


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 Post subject: Advice
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:04 pm 
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Posts: 1902
Jer, I found that playing around with different lubes till I found the one that I liked best (In shops here as "CYCO Racing" - In tthe States call NEO Oil and find out who has their thick chain lube in stock).

Once using this oil and the DT Spoke keyI found the number of nipples I damaged when building wheels is now insignificant (1 in approx every 10 wheels). This [the lube] I also fuond reduces spoke wind up so I am now lighter spokes than many consider feasable in some application due to the fact I can easily get high tensions on them. I do not suggest Revs be built by anyone just starting to build or who wants everything done quickly.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:50 am 
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Location: Anchorage, AK
Cyco, thanks for the tip. I'll play around with it the next time I build with Revos. Do you ever have a problem with there not being enough friction between the spoke and nipple for the wheel to stay true? I guess you wouldn't, especially at high tension. I have always used spoke prep or linseed oil because of that worry.


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 Post subject: Correct
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:43 pm 
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[Quote="jer"]not being enough friction between the spoke and nipple for the wheel to stay true? I guess you wouldn't, especially at high tension.[/Quite]

You are correct. Once there is enough tension, all the lubrication in the world wont allow it to come loose.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:24 pm
Posts: 329
Location: UK
jer wrote:
Two reasons.

As you are probably aware, Revos are 14/17/14 or 15/17/15 gauge and supercomps are 14/16/15. DT defines 14 gauge as 2.0mm in diameter, 15 as 1.8mm, 16 as 1.7, and 17 as 1.5mm.

The part of the spoke the most often breaks is the head (hub end.) Having a stouter gauge there will increase the longevity of your spokes. If you are using alloy nipples, 15 gauge at the threads is better than 14 gauge. This is because the weakness of alloy nipples is not the thread engagement with the spoke (they almost never strip out,) but rather the strength of the nipple when a spoke wrench is on it at high tension. At higher tensions (above 115kgf or 1150 Newtons) 14 gauge alloy nipples start to round off rather than turning on the spoke. 15 gauge nipples seem to be a little tougher due to the smaller hole drilled through them for the spoke and therefore more material contributing to the integrity of the nipple. The last reason is the super thin 17 gauge wire spokes twist very easily*. when you are trying to true you wheels the spokes just twist and twist and the nipple doesn't turn on the threads hardly at all, and not in any sort of predictable fashion. Thicker spokes resist this twisting much better and are much easier to true.

So, to sum up: 14g at the head is best because it is strongest, 15g at the nipple is better with alloy nipples, and 16 gauge is better than 17g in the middle because they don't twist as much when you are building/truing them.

*There is a tool called a Twist-Resist that was intended to prevent a spoke from twisting when you are truing wheels but it is a $30 piece of crap. It really has a hard time holding onto light gauge spokes which are the ones that twist the worst.


This is the most sensible thing that has ever been said on this forum. I agree with all of it, right down to the commas. Well put, Jer.


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 Post subject:
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:14 pm 


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