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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:45 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 101
Location: U.S.
There is no dollar range.

The winner of a race could get nothing, zip, nada, zero.... and there's a good chance that someone will go beyond the rules, or the "spirit and intent" of the rules.

This is not unique to bicycle racing, it happens in every sport... from little kids racing minibikes to Formula 1... and everything in between.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 219
The last two statements made by gerry and uphillisgood (well more gerry, sorry uphillisgood if im picking on you unfairly) dont address the overall trend of cycling. ok, so theres this one dude in college who is taking high end drugs to win a collegiate bike race. do i care? not particularly. top teams have access to undetectable drugs that we don't even know the names of yet, while smaller teams/mtb racers don't have the same financial support and stick with epo. bigger problem than mr. collegiate? i think so

Saying things like 'well its a problem in every sport since the roman times' etc etc sounds just like certain politicians who love to avoid talking about the current issues by using fancy rhetoric that sounds 'deep'. cumon guys, you're smarter than that.


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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:53 am 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:29 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 101
Location: U.S.
Hawk,

My post was more in reply to what andrew and gerry had posted.

My point (and I did a poor job of expressing it, sorry) was simply that it's meaningless how much money is in a sport... it's almost a given that "some" competitors will cheat.

Granted; the method and sophistication (and cost) to gain an advantage may be more expensive in a sport with greater exposure... but the desire to "gain an advantage" is human nature. This will not change.... ever.

The mindset of the collegiate athlete and the pro athlete (to cite your example) are exactly the same. They simply have different resources.

8)

Oh... and I said it before and I'll say it again; give it a few more years and nobody in high-profile professional sports will get caught with anything... because the next level of cheating will be genetic manipulation, not "synthetic" manipulation.

:wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 219
Ya gene doping scares me. Once that comes into the foreground, its all over. The WADA might as well stop wasting their time (well that assumes that they're useful in the first place).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:55 pm
Posts: 28
Location: East Coast USA
I cant agree more. I am an ex collegic cyclist and at one point after my season was over I was offered and told exactly where to buy epo from. To be honest it doesnt make sense. It brings into question why I would even train the way I do and did. To say you won a race is sick but not because you could drop cash and take drugs to elevate you game.

In a few group rides I went on guys were talking of other cyclist in the 50+ Cat doping which boggles the mind. Also Cat 3 guys doping? give me a break maybe people should go look for a new sport if they inject themselves in their back sides or draw blood out of their body because they won a race.

But in a counter argument to this cycling was never a pure sport. Maybe and just maybe in its infancy but for a long I mean very long time guys were taking amphetiameans to boost their performance and this went on for years and years. No one can doubt that fact, I think it is a darker side of our sport and you either do or you dont.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:16 am
Posts: 6
Hey guy,
I teach laboratory medicine in medical school. Having studied the UCI method (http://www.haematologica.org/2003_11/1284.htm), I have no doubt about the positive results of the 3 sample tested (1 at Athens, 2 at Veulta). However, Tyler Hamilton can be a rare case of mixed blood group chimerism found in caucasian (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/2/10) which can give false positive result in the UCI test. Please look at the pictures from the references. The UCI test can detect 5% of mixed blood population. The mixed chimerism also shows 5% mixed blood population. Mixed blood group chimerism can be proved by genetic testing. So I wish UCI should further do blood group genetic testing before make conclusion of any blood-doping charge. :idea:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:24 pm
Posts: 2
Location: down under
Hello all and nice to see some great points of view.... well heres mine.

100 year ago people rode on wooden bike up unsealed roads, with no Dr support, smoked on and off the bike and all in all cheated when they could.

Today there is much more at stake, money, fame etc.... and bikes are lighter, roads are better and Dr's know a whole lot more.

Our lives are so clouded now by what is right wrong, fair legal, etc that in my opinion it should be a complete free for all. Hell take drugs, ride 4kg bikes, do whatever because we the people need to set the limits, if someone goes too far, dont buy their shit, dont watch them and show your disgust, got to go more later.
:twisted:

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Confucious.


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 Post subject: Hamilton - ?cheat
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:32 pm
Posts: 253
Location: AUSTRALIA
It is the easiest thing in the world to play the devil's advocate with this subject - for example, what is the philosophical difference between having a masseur rub oils, creams etc. onto cramped legs in order to race again tomorrow and perhaps win because of it, between having an intravenous drip when severely dehydrated and again perhaps winning next day, and between storing some of your OWN blood for a later date when you might need it, and , again, winning because of it. Or smoking a joint to chill out before a race?

The answer lies in the fact that without rules there can be no competition. It would be pointless. If one could take a pistol to a football game who would play football? Therefore someone has to set the rules, and, even if they seem a bit foolish at times, them's the rules. Don't like 'em , don't play.

Tough titty Tyler.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:24 pm
Posts: 2
Location: down under
I guess in some ways thats my point small fish... the rules are never the same for long
Years ago drugs were legal before WE knew the collective harm or impact of them, bikes got lighter but not too light, we didnt know about vitamins and fluid replacement and now we do.

What im saying is we're not far from a point when the rules must be fully and honestly reviewed...or there will be no point. It is in human nature to go above and beyond, to use all our knowledge and resources to reach our goals, what happens in say 50-100 years when people CAN and ARE being genetically modified......?

Where are the limits? The limits are always changing faster and faster, now we as a collective need to become less paranoid and more responsive, faster at adapting our acceptance of these limits and rules with the same fervour in which we take up mobile phone and computer technologies, its linked its on the same planet so lets get a grip.

Only forward.............

Quote:
Friday, 4 May, 2001, 15:26 GMT 16:26 UK
Genetically altered babies born

Scientists have confirmed that the first genetically altered humans have been born and are healthy.

Up to 30 such children have been born - 15 of them as a result of one experimental programme at a US laboratory.



An "unwelcome" development say scientists

But the technique has been criticised as unethical by some scientists and would be illegal in many countries, including the United Kingdom.

By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse
:twisted:

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Ignorance is the night of the mind, a night without moon or stars.
Confucious.


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 Post subject: Hamilton doping
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:00 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:32 pm
Posts: 253
Location: AUSTRALIA
I guess what you say is right, Harry, in that the rules must be constantly reviewed. One day, not too far off, we,ll all be raving on ww about the new 150g cranks on our 3.8kg bikes, all legal.
However do not escape the fact that you can't go back i.e. suddenly allow drugs to return to favour. So this will remain unchanged forever.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:44 pm
Posts: 148
Location: All over Texas
Monk wrote:
Hey guy,
I teach laboratory medicine in medical school. Having studied the UCI method (http://www.haematologica.org/2003_11/1284.htm), I have no doubt about the positive results of the 3 sample tested (1 at Athens, 2 at Veulta). However, Tyler Hamilton can be a rare case of mixed blood group chimerism found in caucasian (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/2/10) which can give false positive result in the UCI test. Please look at the pictures from the references. The UCI test can detect 5% of mixed blood population. The mixed chimerism also shows 5% mixed blood population. Mixed blood group chimerism can be proved by genetic testing. So I wish UCI should further do blood group genetic testing before make conclusion of any blood-doping charge. :idea:


This is called microchimerism, a condition WELL DOCUMENTED in Ob-Gyn/Peds lit. Its part of the Rh compatability of mother-father relationships. If an Rh positive woman becomes pregnant with an Rh negative fetus, delivery can cause cross placental transfer. If stem cells are transfered, its entirely possible said stem cells might develop into bone marrow, producing erythocytes of foreign nature but fully compatable with the host. If this is the case with Tyler, he will be positive for the rest of his life. And completely safe.

Seems like a NATURAL explaination. But why doesn't the test protocol require mitochondrial DNA analysis of the sorted cells? Mit DNA analysis of the foreign RBC would be identical to the native RBC Mit.

I propose the test was implemented BEFORE peer review.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:11 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:22 pm
Posts: 109
WHAT? Tyler is back:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tech/shows/?id=interbike/day1/04ibikeD1_82


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:18 pm
Posts: 195
Location: Sion/Switzerland
Yes, he's back but I mean: if he knows he's innocent, why not showing off at Interbike. History will tell if he was right.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:45 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 12:45 pm
Posts: 1165
Location: In the Woods
he IS allowed to leave the house I guess :lol:

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 Post subject:
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:45 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:11 am
Posts: 92
looks like there might me another world champion to throw on the doping pile in the way of johan museeuw.

wow if all the world champions are doping how does a little guy stand a chance unless he dopes too?

interesting why the big names guys are doping anyways? they have everything to loose..... BUT SOOO MUCH TO AGAIN! la la la la la


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