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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 101
Location: U.S.
I'd agree completely with rom about Mario's comments. Check everything else... front wheel bearings, headset, etc. I have many thousands of miles on my TCR already, and everything on the bike is as stiff as the day it was new.


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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:28 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 2083
Location: Denmark
Yes, I have checked everything and tried several wheelsets. I am a bikeshop manager, so I´m not a novice in bikemechanics.
The first 4 months, I had Kuota carbonbars on, and everything was fine.
Then after about 4 months, the front began to feel soft. Then I changed the bars to some GASS alu-ones. That was a big improvement, but now it feels very flexy again. I can shake the front from side to side, when I am riding along. I am a Cat. 2? (secondbest) racer, so things get quite hot in the peloton from time to time. In crosswind battles, the bike starts to wobble when I make quick moves to avoid the backwheel of the guy i front of me.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:11 pm 
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I may not ride as much as you do but my first TCR Composite has now done around 25.000 km in 1 1/2 year. I do not feel any changed characteristics in any way.

I wouldn't call Giant's Composite frames stiff though, neither the TCR nor the NRS.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:36 am 
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Location: New York City
Mario Jr. wrote:
I am getting rid of my TCR Composite because it´s too flexy in the front. Just today it started to wobble in a flat section, going 50-55 km/t... The fork is bad, too.
It´s strange, I had no problems in the first 6 months. It´s like it has become "noodlelike" in the past 3 months. Is there a fatigue problem. My previous Trek 5500 had no such issues.


this is the same thing that happened to me, i thought that it was because i was getting better and putting out more power thus flexing the fork more. i tightened up my headset and that did not fix.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:32 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:05 am
Posts: 1011
I'm surprised to hear of any carbon forks getting flexy because carbon has such outstanding wear characteristics. I think this article from velonews is a good read on the subject:

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/art ... 270.0.html

Something not always discussed is stiffness is not always desired particularly when it comes to ride. There are some very stiff carbon bikes that I think mostly good for racing, not for lots of training miles or something like a double century. I think that even though the TCR is not the stiffest composite frame out there, it's also not the harshest. I think it's got a nice ride and in a sense is a good balance of stiffness and vibration damping. There's many pro teams using the TCR and advanced and seems good enough for them (Then again, they probably could replace their forks easily if one got flexy). I'm still surpised to hear about flex in the TCR's fork .. mine hasn't gotten there (yet) with 3k miles on it so far.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:40 am 
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Location: New York City
i know carbon does not fatigue easy, but the crown area is where i get the flex. it is not one piece fork, so this can happen or it could be damged but i am not sure, i will take the fork and headset off clean everything put it back see if i still get the same flex.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:22 am 
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Posts: 947
Location: München
Dr.Dos wrote:
BUT the most important thing I was talking with him was his (and mine too) opinion about stiffness of frames in general. Mr. Smolik is, and I support that 100%, an advocate of comfortable, 'ridable' frames. To quote him:

'I hope the stiffness craze reached a new and all-time high with this frame. I hope frames now become ridable again.'

We were joking about our old Vitus 979, TVT and Reynolds 753 frames (yes, Mr. Smolik is one of the few happy people to have a Reynolds Certificate for that tubeset!). But we both agreed that these fine frames are still a perfect choice for people that actually RIDE their bikes, not compare penises about their frames stiffness.

That coming from the very man who just presents the world record holder in STW makes me smile.
About rideability:
- I know two people who still own TVT frames. Like you and Mr. Smolik, they use to joke about these frames. They were so flexible that your gear would always shift when attacking uphill... Both ride modern style alloy frames now, Giants to be precise.

- Look still builds rather "old style" carbon frames, lugged, glued, small tube diameter. Look riders like Jaja have been seen to open their rear brakes for uphill so the rim won't touch the brakepad - and it was not only the rims fault, he was using ADAs...

- downhilling on SLX or 753 frames was downright scary if you happened to be in the 80kg+-class...

All this is *not* my idea of "rideable", whatever Mr. Smolik may mean by that term.

A large percentage of those who do significant (5 figures) mileage/year on their bikes (and buy their equipment themselves) use presumably "unrideable" stiff frames. Maybe not so unrideable at all?
Quote:
The problem in general is: if you build a frame that is good in one specific (hypothetical?) test, it does not nessecarily mean that the frame will perform well in reality. And Mr. Smolik thinks the same about super-stiff frames as I do: stiffness is NOT the main goal, ridability is!

I agree that we have a trend here that only STW counts at all, maybe due to "Tour"s testing method. And maybe that testing method has a blnk spot in some aspect.
But everybody's free to think of a better way to measure frames!

Martin

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:46 am 
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Location: Denmark
It is not the fork. I can see the front end of the frame twist very much from side to side, when I "shake" the bars. Maybe the frame is damaged in some way, but I have not chrashed on it (yet...).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:22 pm
Posts: 109
martin wrote:
Dr.Dos wrote:
BUT the most important thing I was talking with him was his (and mine too) opinion about stiffness of frames in general. Mr. Smolik is, and I support that 100%, an advocate of comfortable, 'ridable' frames. To quote him:

'I hope the stiffness craze reached a new and all-time high with this frame. I hope frames now become ridable again.'

We were joking about our old Vitus 979, TVT and Reynolds 753 frames (yes, Mr. Smolik is one of the few happy people to have a Reynolds Certificate for that tubeset!). But we both agreed that these fine frames are still a perfect choice for people that actually RIDE their bikes, not compare penises about their frames stiffness.

That coming from the very man who just presents the world record holder in STW makes me smile.
About rideability:
- I know two people who still own TVT frames. Like you and Mr. Smolik, they use to joke about these frames. They were so flexible that your gear would always shift when attacking uphill... Both ride modern style alloy frames now, Giants to be precise.

- Look still builds rather "old style" carbon frames, lugged, glued, small tube diameter. Look riders like Jaja have been seen to open their rear brakes for uphill so the rim won't touch the brakepad - and it was not only the rims fault, he was using ADAs...

- downhilling on SLX or 753 frames was downright scary if you happened to be in the 80kg+-class...

All this is *not* my idea of "rideable", whatever Mr. Smolik may mean by that term.

A large percentage of those who do significant (5 figures) mileage/year on their bikes (and buy their equipment themselves) use presumably "unrideable" stiff frames. Maybe not so unrideable at all?
Quote:
The problem in general is: if you build a frame that is good in one specific (hypothetical?) test, it does not nessecarily mean that the frame will perform well in reality. And Mr. Smolik thinks the same about super-stiff frames as I do: stiffness is NOT the main goal, ridability is!

I agree that we have a trend here that only STW counts at all, maybe due to "Tour"s testing method. And maybe that testing method has a blnk spot in some aspect.
But everybody's free to think of a better way to measure frames!

Martin


Hasn't JaJa set the highest speed in TdF's history? I think read somewhere that his computer said 128km/h! (but that was in the nineties, when the sprinters followed the climbers to the top, and the climbers outsprinted the sprinters. Legalize EPO, for more action in the peloton)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:32 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: the Netherlands
Sorry to get back to the old subject. Went to Eurobike and think that next to the canyon (that make such nice pics and demo bikes but every time suffer from delivery and quality problems). In my opinion the real competitor for the scott in 2005 is the carbon cube frame that was introduced. Just as light, lighter and good looking fork (340 gramms) and nice seatstays. Built quality looks nice too. Always liked cube bikes and this doesn't change my opinion. Furthermore like the cervelo but at this kind of money I would go for the Spin frame.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:18 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Austin
how much for the spin? is it total custom?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:22 pm 
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nicrump wrote:
how much for the spin? is it total custom?

3700,- EUR regular geometry
5000,- EUR custom geometry


http://www.spin-system.de/frameset.htm

click 'PRODUKTE' then click '"intro"'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:11 am
Posts: 92
nicrump wrote:
and remember when they introduced the r2.5? was supposed to be 2.2lb, more like 2.6+ and now they wont even advertise the weight.

it is hard to imagine they can do an 850 gram while still having bonded joints. that added glue is heavy.


talking with phil from cervelo when the 2.5 was created, he told me the "2.5" is the weight they were around. the reason they don't market those numbers is because they didn't want people to buy an oclv over the r2.5 just because it was a bit heavier.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:34 pm
Posts: 1652
Location: New York City
Dr.Dos wrote:
nicrump wrote:
how much for the spin? is it total custom?

3700,- EUR regular geometry
5000,- EUR custom geometry


http://www.spin-system.de/frameset.htm

click 'PRODUKTE' then click '"intro"'


thats alot of cash for a frame, maybe what my whole bike would cost.


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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:00 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:31 pm
Posts: 478
Mario Jr. wrote:
I am getting rid of my TCR Composite because it´s too flexy in the front. Just today it started to wobble in a flat section, going 50-55 km/t... The fork is bad, too.
It´s strange, I had no problems in the first 6 months. It´s like it has become "noodlelike" in the past 3 months. Is there a fatigue problem. My previous Trek 5500 had no such issues.


Check your wheels

Carbon composites aren't like alum alloys - they have fatigue resistance like steel and titanium so you can't fatigue it unless your cycle goes over the design specs (which I doubt anyone who isn't the world's most powerful track sprinter can do to a good frame).

Carbon fibre also doesn't get less stiff over time - so check your components and component fit. Can't be the fork or frame becoming more flexy unless it was damaged somehow.


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