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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:10 am 
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Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 am
Posts: 2194
Location: Alto, NM
divve wrote:
Also, as tension becomes higher the chance of the spoke yielding from twisting increases.


If the spoke is yielding from twist *without* holding it, it will also yield if you are holding it on the bladed section. The stress that the spoke sees will be the same... same torque, same tensile load. The advantage of *not* holding is that you can easily see the amount of torque (twist) being applied to the spoke.

Maybe it is easier to use a holding tool rather than just overshoot... but I kinda doubt it since you are involving your other hand and have to fit the holder to the spoke.


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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:10 am 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:44 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:27 am
Posts: 136
Location: Kalamazoooo
I recieved a set of Bontrager race x lites this year that came with a keychain/spoke holder/spoke wrench, the thing was ill, but I lost it.

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Keepin' it Real since like last week or something.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:38 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:36 pm
Posts: 4123
rruff wrote:
If the spoke is yielding from twist *without* holding it, it will also yield if you are holding it on the bladed section. The stress that the spoke sees will be the same... same torque, same tensile load. The advantage of *not* holding is that you can easily see the amount of torque (twist) being applied to the spoke.

Maybe it is easier to use a holding tool rather than just overshoot... but I kinda doubt it since you are involving your other hand and have to fit the holder to the spoke.


No, because you're not holding the spoke in the middle. The tool is best used as close as possible to your spoke key near the nipple. As mentioned previously with high tension the spoke also has a high tendency of twisting without the nipple doing much of anything.

There's no problem in holding the tool. I don't really see why it's hard to use both hands...maybe because I'm ambidextrous it's less of an issue for me :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:13 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5778
Location: Belgium
rruff wrote:
divve wrote:
Also, as tension becomes higher the chance of the spoke yielding from twisting increases.


If the spoke is yielding from twist *without* holding it, it will also yield if you are holding it on the bladed section. The stress that the spoke sees will be the same... same torque, same tensile load. The advantage of *not* holding is that you can easily see the amount of torque (twist) being applied to the spoke.
Maybe it is easier to use a holding tool rather than just overshoot... but I kinda doubt it since you are involving your other hand and have to fit the holder to the spoke.


Hi,

The advantage of holding the special spoke key is that you'll feel the spoke resist.
I just can't imagine working on bladed spokes without this sort of tool..... :?
What puzzles me in your statement, and I'm reading between the lines here, is that you seem to imply that any tendency to twist while increasing spoke tension would automatically result in a yielded spoke.
Is this the case or am I reading too much into it?

Ciao, :wink:

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 Post subject: my bladed spoke tool
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:05 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Santa Fe, NM
This is what I made. It has a 2mm hole recessed 5mm deep at the beginning of the bladed slot. This allows the tool to overlap the transition between the bladed section and the round section of the spoke. This also allows the tool to be as close to the nipple as possible and it significantly reduces the point loading at the end of the tool which can be a problem with other slotted spoke holders.

Cheers,

Jeremy


Attachments:
bladed spoke tool 1.JPG
bladed spoke tool 1.JPG [ 56.09 KiB | Viewed 350 times ]
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 Post subject: another view
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:08 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Santa Fe, NM
This view shows the overlap.

Cheers,

Jeremy


Attachments:
bladeed spoke tool 2.JPG
bladeed spoke tool 2.JPG [ 58.37 KiB | Viewed 346 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:55 pm 
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Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 am
Posts: 2194
Location: Alto, NM
fdegrove wrote:
What puzzles me in your statement, and I'm reading between the lines here, is that you seem to imply that any tendency to twist while increasing spoke tension would automatically result in a yielded spoke.
Is this the case or am I reading too much into it?


The maximum stress in the bladed portion of the spoke will be the same whether you use a tool that holds the blade, or you just let the spoke twist. The torque applied is governed by the resistance of the threads, and if this torque is resisted by any part of the (weak) bladed part of the spoke the same stress will occur. The only difference will be in the angle of the twist... and I guess the location, since if you are holding the spoke, you know exactly where the highest stress occurs.

So... if the spoke is yielding without the tool, it will also yield with the tool, and if you exceed the yield stress, the maximum amount of plastic deformation will be the same. Maybe confining the yield to a shorter section of spoke is better than letting it occur anywhere in a large span... not sure about that. At least if you confine it to a small length the spoke will still appear to be straight rather than noticably twisted... but the magnitude of plastic deformation and weakening (if any) will be the same.

The only aero spokes I've used were Wheelsmith's, and they are thicker in the middle (1.3mm vs .9mm for CX-Rays). The spoke twist didn't seem excessive without holding them, but I don't know what happens to CX-Rays. I had assumed that normally the yield stress is not exceeded... but maybe I'm wrong... maybe these are taken beyond yield all the time, and the tool is necessary to make sure that the permanent twist is a short one rather than a long one. If this is true, but the spokes are not failing, then I guess it doesn't hurt anything.

Holding the spoke at the round part would eliminate the over-stress completely, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:53 am 
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in the industry

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Santa Fe, NM
[/quote]Holding the spoke at the round part would eliminate the over-stress completely, though.[/quote]

Like this:

Awhile ago I found a good use for the obsolete Campy chain tool. It has smooth parallel jaws that grip the spoke firmly without damaging the spoke at all. I clamp it around the full size round section of the spoke. I also made a "side entry" nipple wrench so that I can position the spoke holder directly beneath the nipple. I use these tools during the high tension rounds.

Cheers,

Jeremy


Attachments:
spoke vise1.JPG
spoke vise1.JPG [ 61.77 KiB | Viewed 344 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:29 am 
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Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 am
Posts: 2194
Location: Alto, NM
You have a regular machine shop there don't you?

Looks good...


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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:46 am 
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Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 am
Posts: 2194
Location: Alto, NM
Jeremy... just wondering if you or anybody else knows where to find a spoke wrench similar to the one you made... ie one that has a long handle that allows space for clamping near the nipple. I know Hozan makes or made one but I can find it in small size (.127") anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:48 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Santa Fe, NM
rruff wrote:
Jeremy... just wondering if you or anybody else knows where to find a spoke wrench similar to the one you made... ie one that has a long handle that allows space for clamping near the nipple. I know Hozan makes or made one but I can find it in small size (.127") anymore.


According to UBT Hozan does not make that wrench anymore and UBT no longer has any of the .127 size. UBT has another one from a company called Cyclus. It is a lot shorter than the Hozan and the head is a lot bulkier, so you can't clamp the spoke as close to the nipple. Also, the tolerance fit seems a little loose to me. Topeak made one as well, but the fit is so sloppy that it is worthless. I eventually gave up trying to find a good side entry nipple wrench. That's why I started making my own. I actually want to find a source to produce these for sale. With my wrench, I can clamp the round part of the spoke 1mm away from the end of the nipple. This eliminates all twist while tensioning. P.S. as a fellow New Mexican, I could probably be convinced to make one for you.

Cheers,

Jeremy


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 Post subject: Re: Spoke holding tool?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:06 pm 
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Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 am
Posts: 2194
Location: Alto, NM
Alchemist wrote:
P.S. as a fellow New Mexican, I could probably be convinced to make one for you.


Count me in! :D


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