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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:29 pm 
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jer wrote:
You guys are worse than the velonews mailbag. :roll: What would be an acceptable reason to speculate that Lance is doping? What if he can spin a 55x12 for an hour? What if he was dieing of cancer in ’96-’97, racing professionally again in ’98, and winning the Tour in ’99? What if his old masseuse (who had the trust of the team) said she saw him do it?


So, what did the old masseuse see? She didn't see him injecting EPO. And he didn't rush back to racing after being cleared of cancer, he took his time. He sat out one TDF in which he WAS healthy. Get your facts straight if you're going to pretend you know them.

Would an acceptable reason for winning be: he was a world class cyclist before cancer, and because of the cancer, lost 7-10 kg of upper body mass. Hey this is WW's, do I need to say that he got faster in the mountains?? That was the only "hole" in his previous possibility as a GC contender and the loss of mass is a big advantage. And don't discount the addition of Johan Bruyneel as coach, it was a huge boost to his career.

Quote:
LeMond may not know everything about Lance, but he does know stresses of the race pretty well, and I would say he is very qualified to talk about what it takes to be at the level that Lance is at.


If he really knows something, which is doubtful, then go to a reputable news agency, not the french publication Lemond! That's the equivalent of a tabloid when it comes to reporting doping. And, like what about all the other previous greats? Including Mercxx, Indurain, Hinault or ANY other cyclist for that matter. Nobody's thrown dirt on him like Lemond.

If Armstrong is or has doped then he should go down, but not on bogus speculation by a previous (once respected) american champion. That's my whole point.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:04 pm 
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LeMond doesn't want to admit Carmichael has a better system. Remember, Chris and Greg were team mates. Greg is a has been. Chris is making big bucks.


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Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:04 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:06 pm 
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Weisse Luft wrote:
LeMond doesn't want to admit Carmichael has a better system. Remember, Chris and Greg were team mates. Greg is a has been. Chris is making big bucks.

I think not...go back and see my comments on Carmichael and Lance...
BTW, Greg is making some big bucks right now too. Yeah Chris has his face all over the place right now, but remember, once Lance is retired, Carmichael will drift out of the public eye too. Greg is still in it regularly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:25 am 
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Location: South NJ Shore
Lemond should watch out. There is some merit to the saying that "there is no fool like an old (in pro bicycling years) fool." Then, again, I wonder if Lemond is saying that he had to take drugs to come back from his injury and win the TdF therefore he knows that Armstrong must do the same.

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Those who ignore histroy are doomed to repeat it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:53 am 
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Posts: 92
It boggles my mind how Americans can be so naive to
our own short comings. I mean it has been well
documented that cycling is up to it's eye balls in
drug scandals and these are only the ones that the
authorities they feel have enough evidence to pursue.
How many other cases get over looked due to lack of
funds or resources. Let's be realistic, in a shopping
mall what is the percentage of shoplifters that get
caught? A low percentage for sure and they get caught
because they are stupid kids! The professionals know
how the system works and usually get away with it. The
same is true with drug cheats in sport.

Now if cycling is doped to the max how can a mere
human like Lance operating on 80% of his God given
lungs be destroying the world's best tour cyclists?
It's not even close! Drugs work, that is why people
take them! To think Lance can dominate the drug users
naturally is just plain naive. We Americans are like
the the lady who's husband is cheating on her. She
knows the truth but she tries to fool herself into
thinking "he's working late", "there are plenty of
ways some strange women's panties could be in his
pocket". Face it America. Lance is screwing us behind
our backs.

The US track and field drug scandals have been awesome
to follow. Athlete's that have never failed a drug
test are now being caught with a steroid nobody had a
test for. Just because you have never failed a drug
test Lance doesn't mean you haven't taken a
performance enhancing drug (and I'm pretty sure Lance
has had some close calls in the drug testing
department that he has been bailed out of). I am
wondering why nobody asks lance when he stopped
talking EPO? He was on it! It's standard treatment for
chemotherapy. He had the prescriptions all he had to
do was fill them.

I'm also tired of people talking about how Lance is a
"messiah" for cancer survivors. Does anyone think that
he didn't do it on his own? Maybe he had help from a
greater power? If all it takes is positive thinking to
cure cancer why are we wasting so much money on
research, we have the answer. No i think lance fought
incredibly hard but there had to divine intervention
or some cosmic luck. Radioactive horseshoes up his
butt as it were.

America stop glorifying our athletes. Lance is human
like you or I. He can make mistakes and bad choices
like we can. The difference is we don't have 10's of
millions of dollars of sponsorship pressure and a
country riding on our shoulders. We scream "we love
you Lance, that is as long as you are winning after
which we'll drop you like a hot potato and look for
another hero." How many of you could fight that
pressure?

I don't blame Lance for taking drugs. A person should
not have to go through that much pressure. I just hope
one day he is man enough to say "I'm sorry, I did take
drugs". That is when I will think he truly is a great
one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:50 am 
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Location: Middle of nowhere, EU
doozer wrote:
Dr.Dos wrote:
Trek ownz LeMond ...


Mmmmmm..... wonder if they'll have a quiet word???

Dooz :mrgreen:


No because TREK owns LeMond the company... LeMond the rider does not.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:23 pm 
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gerry wrote:
:smartass:
blad da da blab blab blab



The Bellview lecture symposium called -- they want your speech back.

When he was 13 Armstrong was winning triathalons for money against adults. I think for sure his peanut butter and jelly sandwitches were doped then also. Also, his left nut is a nuclear power pack for bionic calf transplants which were secretly implanted during one of his cancer surgeries. So, he doesn't need epo because the pack only runs at about 5% compacity, not 80%.. get your facts straight dude! :shock:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:28 pm 
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bobalou wrote:
What did the old masseuse see? She didn't see him injecting EPO. And he didn't rush back to racing after being cleared of cancer, he took his time. He sat out one TDF in which he WAS healthy. Get your facts straight if you're going to pretend you know them.


Ouch! nothing like a little sucker punch between friends. You're right. Lance took it easy in '88, only placing top 5 in Vuelta and Worlds. (Of course that was after dropping out of Paris-Nice and a quick trip back to the US for a week of "training" with Chris Carmichael.) So what facts am I shaky on?

I can't read French so until there is an english version of LA Confidential I will have to wait to know exactly what Emma O'Riley says she saw. My questions were meant to provoke thought, not to accuse Lance or vindicate LeMond. I just want to know what it would take to make a fan suspect that the Lance story might be a little too good to be true.

I believe that Lance is doping, because I have seen people dieing of cancer (I have no medical experience, my mom is a hospice nurse) and they dont come back that fast or that well. Of course, I also believe that OJ did it even though nothing has ever been "proved."


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:11 am 
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jer wrote:

I believe that Lance is doping, because I have seen people dieing of cancer (I have no medical experience, my mom is a hospice nurse) and they dont come back that fast or that well. Of course, I also believe that OJ did it even though nothing has ever been "proved."


I know someone that had testicular cancer. After being cleared of the disease they ran a marathon in about a years time. They were an athelete before the cancer and still are. I'm not an expert on cancer or recovery but I don't think his (Armstrong's) recovery was unusual or too fast.

More significant is what cancer (or nearly dying for that matter) does to your soul. You change your outlook on life when you almost die. Maybe you should ask your mom about that. When a person has to take a long, hard look at themselves they don't come out of it and do something deceivious like doping. On his part it would require a conspiracy of a team and manager, those closest to him no doubt, family, persons of high esteem would have to be implicated. It doesn't fit. Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:04 am 
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Posts: 92
i don't understand how coming close to death makes people all of the sudden become perfect and avoid devious things. i'm sure their are many criminals out there that have knocked on death's door that don't change their stripes. the statement is just unfounded.

if the festina systematic team doping program could be hidden for as long as it was surely hiding lance's doping, as one person, should be easier since it would have to be implicate less people then a whole team's "family and friends, people of high esteem". if high profile and talented athletes like zulle, virenque and defaux could take drugs why can't people see lance doing the same. those athletes had so much pressure riding on a them than lance and they folded to the pressure.

is it so hard to believe it's possible? old psych experiments got everyday people to seemingly administer a deadly volltage to a stranger just by putting a person with a white lab coat in the room. no money, future security, fame or anything. think of being the head of a 12 million dollar a year company and success of that company came down to you and how well you did your job on 5-6 individual day in 1 year. 1 slip and it's over. the whole years work is down the tubes.

then someone says we can take out an insurnace policy that will give you an edge over others. nobody knows of this secret so there is no way you can be caught. yah you would take it. it would be the smartest thing to do. you don't get to where lance is by being a dumbie


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:00 am 
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@ gerry, what is this with the shoplifters, criminals, psych experiments, devious things, cheating husbands, etc. ...that is some scary reading.... :shock: :?

It's entirely possible that most professional cyclists (and pro athletes in general) are on some kind of performance enhancement. I don't agree with it (and it's certainly even worse, on an ethical level, in the amateur ranks, where young people are most likely more unaware and more pressured in subtle ways), but I think either the proof must be presented, and severe penalties enacted, or the "process" of judgment is really flawed.

I'm not a "Lance supporter" (he's a George W. supporter after all :unbelievable: ), but I don't know him personally, and I certainly don't know his training habits or inner character. I do believe: it is possible for exceptional athletes to achieve extraordinary levels based on work, dedication and precision; that the entire anti-doping agenda is hypocritical; and that Greg LeMond should not insinuate without evidence.

If Armstrong is doping, it's because his vanity/ego has left him morally bankrupt; but what a risk, because if he's caught not only his legacy but the nice corporate/political empire he's building will be definitely bankrupt.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:07 am 
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WHAT??? Can anyone please tell me what the heck this guy is saying?

:laughat:

gerry wrote:

is it so hard to believe it's possible? old psych experiments got everyday people to seemingly administer a deadly volltage to a stranger just by putting a person with a white lab coat in the room. no money, future security, fame or anything. think of being the head of a 12 million dollar a year company and success of that company came down to you and how well you did your job on 5-6 individual day in 1 year. 1 slip and it's over. the whole years work is down the tubes.


Old psych experiments.. deadly voltage.. white lab coats??

One slip and it's all over! :shock: :frightened: :lol: :lol:

Look, no offense just having some fun. You want to believe Lance is dirty, go ahead. I don't need to defend him, I said what I believe.
Have you read either or both of his books? He defends himself just fine there. Read, dude. Hear what he says, my opinion don't mean much. :D


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:14 am 
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:scared: Image :P


...

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"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:22 am 
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cadence90 wrote:
I'm not a "Lance supporter" (he's a George W. supporter after all :unbelievable: )


What makes you think so, cadence?

I don't think he's a Bush supporter actually. I think he's hinted at being a democrat .. but never actually admitted any party affiliation from what I know. He doesn't like politics (from what I read in his second book). He's been reactive, politically. In otherwords, Bush asked him to be on his cancer advisory committee (or something like that) and he complied, but Clinton had him do something also (don't remember what).


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:31 am 
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You're right, I don't know for sure.
I'd read somewhere several different instances that he had expressed admiration for Dubya and that they were "friends", fellow Texans and all, but at that level I suppose being "friends" doesn't mean supporting...I don't know Armstrong's politics at all, and they're his right.

Bush likes him, though: http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/news/articles/6585.0.html

It's a good thing John Kerry didn't make the same prediction of poor Hamilton....

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"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri


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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:31 am 


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