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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:31 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:03 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Belfast
What is the ultimate aluminium frame; Principia, Cannondale, Teschner, Pegoretti, DeRosa, Pinerello, Storck?
How do we decide- metals in the alloy, weight, stiffness, longevity, finish, geometry,cost!?
Various magazines and reviewers have given their opinions and no doubt egineers have run tests, but what is the top frame?
I have it on good authority that the Storck EVO is up there, apparently the presidents of Cannondale and Principia own Storcks and they are the inspiration for their frames, and that there a re rebadged Storcks aplenty in the grand tours! Discuss


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:26 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:00 am
Posts: 152
Location: Reggio Emilia, ITALY
It's a very hard question...

IMO Pinarello makes very good alu frames (on the heavish side...), De Rosa are very good too (they're lighter than Pinarellos). One of less talked about manufactures is Carrera: check their bikes out, cause they're light, well made and they have years of pro-riders experience. All of theese manufacturers build bikes with Dedacciai tubing (although Pinarello uses very custom ones).

The history of rebadging is old as TDF... I wouldn't say a bike is a rebadged one until I've got proofs (e.g. Rebellin's Wilier / Scott, or Armstong 90s Trek/Litespeed).

Bye, Benz.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:42 pm
Posts: 1021
Location: in Colorado
Do you consider scandium an aluminum alloy?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:12 pm 
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Posts: 148
Location: All over Texas
popawheelie wrote:
Do you consider scandium an aluminum alloy?


Yes. Pure Sc would be prohibitively expensive and far too weak.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:06 pm 
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Posts: 10
Here is one that has yet to be mentioned anywhere on this forum.

http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/bikes/flight/index.cfm


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:44 am
Posts: 640
Location: Boulder, CO
The Pros I know who raced on Pinarellos didn't really care for them. They were also heavier than any of them expected.

Personally, I think the question would need to be clarified: is it the ultimate aluminum bike for 1 season or for 5?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:18 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Colorado
A couple to throw in the mix

the litespeed alloy frames are nice, light and responsive. But they do have some hideous colors.

Titus - drop-u frame is a great frame as well

Principia probably for me


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:44 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Quote:
popawheelie wrote:
Do you consider scandium an aluminum alloy?

Weisse Luft wrote:
Yes. Pure Sc would be prohibitively expensive and far too weak.


You know a pure metal isn't an alloy.

Also, no one would ever want to make a pure scandium frame. Scandium is a grain refiner for aluminum the strengthens it's bonds. It is alloyed with aluminum in small quantities ( somewhere around 3%) to make scandium alloy (it's really an aluminum alloy seeing how it is over 90% aluminum, but the guys in marketing thought calling it a "scandium frame" sounds more impressive.)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:21 pm 
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Location: in Colorado
Thanks Superlite. That's what I meant. Scemantics, Shemantics.
Does the list include them or not!
I Think it should.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:01 pm
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Location: Wichita, KS USA
I would think that the Scott C-1 is the lightest Scandium frame around at 950 grams and U2 frames as light as 860 grams for Agresti. There is a Denti Solo frame that is U2 tubing and on Murabikes site, is tuned down to 789 grams. :shock: I don't know what size the frame is, it does look extremely small. I don't think it even has clearcoat on it. :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:53 pm
Posts: 66
BMC is extremely good. A pro that lives near me said it is a lot better than Pinarello!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:49 am
Posts: 948
Location: München
Enda Marron wrote:
What is the ultimate aluminium frame; Principia, Cannondale, Teschner, Pegoretti, DeRosa, Pinerello, Storck?
How do we decide- metals in the alloy, weight, stiffness, longevity, finish, geometry,cost!?
Various magazines and reviewers have given their opinions and no doubt egineers have run tests, but what is the top frame?
I have it on good authority that the Storck EVO is up there, apparently the presidents of Cannondale and Principia own Storcks and they are the inspiration for their frames, and that there a re rebadged Storcks aplenty in the grand tours! Discuss

(Pegoretti builds Al too? i thought they excel in steel)

Sounds like the question for a thesis :-)

A racing bike should be as light as possible without sacrificing stiffness or durability. If it looks nice, too, all the better
How much stiffness you need is debatable. I personally like them as stiff as possible.

I notice you forgot Klein in your list. I think the earlier Kleins (when the company was still independent) were the first frames that made the most out of Aluminium.
Examples from the early nineties (Quantum Pro and Quantum II) are still competitive in Weight and especially Stiffness/weight. Outstanding build quality and excellent paintjobs, too! I rate them as the best Al frames there are beause of their overall quality.

Cannondale, Principia and Storck as Klein copies are on the same level and may well have topped the original. Unfortunately Cannondale has taken a kneefall to fashion and uses Al/Carbon mixture now, which in my opinion toes not benefit a frame.
Partly for the same reason I don't care much for italian Al frames.
And the welds of the first Al. Bianchis, Pinarellos and de Rosas were simply awful.
I like the very pretty De Rosa Merak, but they are rumoured to break easily.

Geometry: difficult issue. I think no major brand builds frame geometries that are just plain bad. There are agile frames, and there are well balanced ones - i think it is futile to discuss which one is better. Testride some and get the one which suits you best.
I own two Principias which are bombproof on highspeed descents but have to be forced into tight turns, they feel like a truck compared to the Scott Team Issue which is almost nervous - "italian" geometry :-) . I prefer the Scott.

Modern Sc Frames like the Scott Team Issue '03 or other superlight frames (you mentioned Teschner) can be built lighter, but they have to prove they can last - time will tell.
If you value durability over lightness, stay away from U2 tubing. Teschner for example reduces warranty from 10 years for his Sc frames to 2 years for U2 frames. And Sc frames are possibly not built to last forever, too.

Martin
PS: And as superlite said, a "Scandium" frame contains as much Scandium as an Aluminium frame contains Copper, Titan and Silizium. So every Al frame could be called "Copper" with the same right :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:02 pm 
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Location: Santa Monica, CA
It's the one you most like to ride.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:28 pm 
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Posts: 1011
Fondriest don racer is a nice one. Italian geometry, very light and quality build. Kind of pricey though.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:59 am 
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Posts: 389
Location: California
bobalou wrote:
Fondriest don racer is a nice one. Italian geometry, very light and quality build. Kind of pricey though.



Who builds them? How about the carbon Fondriest frames (Top)?

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