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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:31 pm 
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My shops cannondale rep brought one in today, full record 10, SI crankset, FSA K wing bar and stem. Weighed in at a hair over 15lbs.

The thing that really dissapointed me was the finish of the frame. Very sloppy, paint poorly done, but it could all be due to preproduction.

What really looks cheesy is the head tube, there are two hole drilled into the head tube in order to put the air bladders into the frame to inflate the carbon and to cover them up they put a cheesy carbon shell over them. Looks very cheap.

Get this, the frame is essentially a CAAD 7, with the exception of a few tweaks, the seat stays are now aero, and the chain stays a bit beefier. Possibly the next CAAD 8, but with a different name as they are no longer making CAAD frames.

But get this, they build up te whole frame, then cut out the aluminum where the carbon goes, then fill in the cut holes! It's not lugged, just chopped out aluminum. The bonding of the carbon to aluminum is cool though. He also brought in a piece of frame that showed the bonding. The carbon is both mechanically and chemically bonded to the aluminum. As a result the frame is so strong that the carbon tubes break before the bonds do, and the over all frame is stronger then the CAAD 7.

Just wanted to share some info for those interested. If your looking to get one of these framesets or bikes, DO NOT GET ONE YET! Right now they are unrefined and in the next few months the problems will be taken care of. So if your planning on getting one on April 15th, wait a while, or you'll be sorry!

Have any other questions feel free to ask.

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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:31 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:14 pm 
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I would consider a BMC team replica over a 6 13. i had one in my hands yesterday, the bike looks amazing. the head tube on this thing was huge (really Beefy). the bikes looks really well built, over built. love the top and down tube.

i thought that their were no welds, but i could see 3 welds, top tube is welded to the cnc machined seat tube that connects to the carbon. the downtube and seat tube (the alu peices) are welded to the cnc bottom bracket.

but overall, this thing looks mean and good at the same time, from what i see and the way this things is built, your not getting any flex from that frame. The price is the only problem - retail is $3000, a little to rich for my blood.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:37 pm 
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How did the fork look? Did it have the all-carbon dropouts? 15lbs with pedals? I wish you had photos of the cheesy-ness, as they look pretty hot it pictures. Then again, I don't think i've seen any close up photos of the headtube.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:47 pm 
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15lbs with nothing. The fork is the same as the CAAD 7, all carbon. Headtube not only looks like crap, but I can already tel cannondale is going to have serious problems with water getting into the headtube because of the design. Trust me, it will be changed, but is may be after they have a recall on all of there six13's already sold.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:10 pm 
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Recalls are a way of life at C'Dale!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:15 pm 
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I think building a full bike and then cutting it and inserting the carbon tubes makes senses. It allows Cannondale to continue to use thier existing jigs, and it ensures that the frame will be in alignment when the carbon is added. It is very difficult to build the lugs seperatly, especially the large lugs that Cannondale is using, and a have them all come out straight and complementary.

Superlight, where did you hear that the holes in the head tube are for air bladders? I expected that the carbon tubes came preformed and were simply glued in and would not need any extra pressure to complete the bond and force out excess resin. I wouldn't worry too much about water entering the bike. It happens to any bike ridden in the rain, and the aluminum won't have the same rust problems of a steel bike. Any bike that is welded together has breather holes in every tube, usually hidden inside a joint when possible, but water can still enter and exit from these holes.

Sean


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:37 pm 
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wanderingwheel wrote:
I think building a full bike and then cutting it and inserting the carbon tubes makes senses. It allows Cannondale to continue to use thier existing jigs, and it ensures that the frame will be in alignment when the carbon is added. It is very difficult to build the lugs seperatly, especially the large lugs that Cannondale is using, and a have them all come out straight and complementary.

Superlight, where did you hear that the holes in the head tube are for air bladders? I expected that the carbon tubes came preformed and were simply glued in and would not need any extra pressure to complete the bond and force out excess resin. I wouldn't worry too much about water entering the bike. It happens to any bike ridden in the rain, and the aluminum won't have the same rust problems of a steel bike. Any bike that is welded together has breather holes in every tube, usually hidden inside a joint when possible, but water can still enter and exit from these holes.

Sean


Al + carbon + water = galvanic corrosion (you made a battery). Add in salt and it gets worse.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 pm 
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Quote:
I think building a full bike and then cutting it and inserting the carbon tubes makes senses. It allows Cannondale to continue to use thier existing jigs, and it ensures that the frame will be in alignment when the carbon is added. It is very difficult to build the lugs seperatly, especially the large lugs that Cannondale is using, and a have them all come out straight and complementary.

Superlight, where did you hear that the holes in the head tube are for air bladders? I expected that the carbon tubes came preformed and were simply glued in and would not need any extra pressure to complete the bond and force out excess resin. I wouldn't worry too much about water entering the bike. It happens to any bike ridden in the rain, and the aluminum won't have the same rust problems of a steel bike. Any bike that is welded together has breather holes in every tube, usually hidden inside a joint when possible, but water can still enter and exit from these holes.


First of all, the six13 isn't lugged, it's a aluminum frame with sections cut out and carbon put in its place.

Secondly, I heard the holes were put into the head tube by a cannondale rep that brought in the six13, I mentioned that in my original post. What did you think they were they for?

Third, the carbon in the frame are not merly carbon tubes bonded to the aluminum, the carbon is inserted inside the frame while wet, then the holes in the headtube are used for inserting the air bladders. Keep in mind the whole frame is put inside a mold, in which the air bladders air filled, extruding the carbon into the aluminum, making a seamless carbon/aluminum bond, both mechanical and glue.

And lastly, I would worry very much about water getting into the head tube, not so much of the frame corroding, although as Ye Ole Balde pointed out it can happen, but mostly it is a problem because water will get into the headset, ruining the bearings.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:20 pm 
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Ye Olde Bald One, your point is well taken and something I had forgotten when I first posted. However, I still don't think it will be a problem because the carbon should be covered in resin and not exposed to any water that comes in. Ignoring for a moment the early attempts at bonding carbon and aluminum, there have not been any major problems with galvanic corrosion. If you know of some recent systemic problems, please correct me.

Superlight, I would call the bike lugged because the carbon tubes are placed inside of the aluminum, if I'm not mistaken, making the aluminum sections act as lugs. I have seen people cut out the head tube in order to lose a few grams from the frame, but I can't imagine that the carbon covers used by Cannondale weigh less than the aluminum it replaces. I have also seen people cut out the head tube for aesthetic reasons. With the fork steerer tube painted a contrasting color, it can make a very unique looking bike, but that was obviously not the point here. Thanks the info on the build process, and your concern about the headset bearings is reasonable. I wonder how many people who buy it will ride it in the rain.

Sean


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:53 pm 
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Quote:
I would call the bike lugged because the carbon tubes are placed inside of the aluminum,


A lugged frame has joints that are made for connecting tubing together. Like I said, they are not lugs, as the bike is a frame with sections cut out and filled with carbon. The joints are aluminum, connected to aluminum tubes, that turn into carbon.

Quote:
I have seen people cut out the head tube in order to lose a few grams from the frame, but I can't imagine that the carbon covers used by Cannondale weigh less than the aluminum it replaces.


As I mentioned earlier the holes are in the headtube so the air bladders could be placed into the frame. Not for astetics or weight reduction.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:57 pm 
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SL is right....it's not a true lugged frame. The lines are beginning to blur as frame makers are starting to mix materials. Look at the Titus Exogrid bike. Similar concept, except they take a Ti bike and turn it into swiss cheese and then fill the gaps with carbon.

http://www.titusti.com/exo_iso.html


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:25 am 
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Specialized is using the same principle on the Tarmac, as are others.
These aren't lugged frames at all, they're just hybrids.
That Titus is a trip, is there really any point to all that filigree? :?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:46 am 
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I can find a lot of agreement in SL's assessment of the Six13. It's sort of a too little too late change. Their aluminum models all had something distinctive to Cannondale. The new model, although undoubtedly a good frame, comes across as a "me too" design. The paint job indeed looks like something to cover up crude manufacturing details instead of a nice and smooth finishing layer.

I guess if I was in dire need for a new Cannondale road bike I'd go for their latest and greatest, but I fail to see how it's supposed to inspire current owners to upgrade.

Bottom line is the bike lacks "sex appeal".


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:10 pm 
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Quote:
Bottom line is the bike lacks "sex appeal".


I don't think it could be put any better. 8)

If your interested in a cannondale the CAAD 7 is friggin awsome, I swear by mine. Esp. the team issue red tint color, I think it's the best looking frame anywhere. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:49 pm 
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The Cannondale is lugged, there are only 2 ways Lugged and Monocoque. The Oxford dictionary defines lug as fixed in place. The carbon is fixed in place. even if you build a frame and then cut out the sections, what you are left with are lugs. And aluminium cannot turn into carbon. It would still be possible to take the two materials apart once in the frame. Whereas you can not with a Monocoque


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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:49 pm 


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