Advice: Titanium Frame

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Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:50 am

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:32 pm
Posts: 3471
Location: UK & WEST AFRICA

With regard to weld quality on frames, you can have beautiful welds that are bad and crappy looking welds that are good. The only way to check the real quality of a weld is to have NDT (Non-DEstructive Testing) with gamma or x-ray. Then you will know whether it's never likely to crack.

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Scapin/Dean

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:11 pm

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:08 pm
Posts: 110
Location: South NJ Shore

Have youi posted any pic's that I've missed?

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C-40

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:16 pm

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:11 pm
Posts: 554
Location: Detroit-USA

Now you need to go back to Colorado and ride on a high-end carbon bike and compare the two.....

How come we never hear from anyone riding on the Seven bikes- which are also beautifully assembled. Especially the Odanata???? Anybody have anything to say????

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bobalou

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:04 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:05 am
Posts: 987

cadence90 wrote:

Nice of you to follow up.
It sounds like you had a nice tour of both facilities, and some very nice riding!
I'm glad you like the Dean.
I like my Kish!

Got any photos yet, Cadence? Also, did you decide on a computer?

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manny

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:02 pm

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:12 pm
Posts: 56

I ride a seven axiom ti that was custom built for me. The welds are the best I have seen on any frame. What I think is the best thing about seven is the geometry of the frame and how it fits. If you want the bike for a specific purpose they will make it fit and function for that purpose. You can select tubing to make the frame stiff or compliant and depending on its intended use you can determine handling. I checked my specs to the finished frame and they were dead on. The most important thing about a frame is fit, and the best way to make it fit right is to go custom. The only complaint I have personally heard from a seven owner was that his foot would rub against the s-curved chain stay, but the problem was his pedal stroke and not the bike.

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Scapin/Dean

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:31 pm

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:08 pm
Posts: 110
Location: South NJ Shore

KB - unless the cost is very much lower in the UK than in the USA, NDT would be prohibitively expensive, more than doubling the price of a frame. Cutting up an occasional weld to check for full penetration and a dye-penetrate test is good enough. We aren't talking rocket science here.

And, Cadence 90, where is the pic of that Kish?

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Xterra Racer

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:38 pm

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:10 pm
Posts: 378
Location: Colorado

Sure NDT is expensive if you contract it out each time, but if you buy the equipment and expense it as a capital item (allowing you to depreciate it over time for tax purposes) it's brings the pricing down quite a bit.

However, is this a justified expense for a small bike manufacture. I doubt it.

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cadence90

Post subject: Kish Fabrication ti road

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:03 am

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:52 am
Posts: 1610

bobalou wrote:

cadence90 wrote:

Nice of you to follow up.
It sounds like you had a nice tour of both facilities, and some very nice riding!
I'm glad you like the Dean.
I like my Kish!

Got any photos yet, Cadence? Also, did you decide on a computer?

I have quite a few photos of the welds, but my photo software stopped working, I need to reload it....
I'm finishing the build this weekend and will of course post photos then.
Here are several images of the frame.

As far as the computer, I'm torn between the Vetta you suggested and the new Cateye double wireless (but no one seems to know much about it yet...).

Attachments:

kish_frame.jpg [ 56.6 KiB | Viewed 629 times ]

kish_seat cluster.JPG [ 32.23 KiB | Viewed 638 times ]

kish_head tube.jpg [ 31.62 KiB | Viewed 623 times ]

kish_bb.jpg [ 38.33 KiB | Viewed 621 times ]

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Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:31 am

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:32 pm
Posts: 3471
Location: UK & WEST AFRICA

Scapin/Dean wrote:

No, I appreciate what you're saying. And yes, it's expensive in the UK also. Ultimately, without testing, the judgements made are subjective and therefore we rely on feedback from riders. So, when someone says that the welding is crap, it's based on how nice it looks.
The only company I can think of that does do some testing on its welds is Carrera-Podium. I seem to remember seeing something in one of the bike magazines. Apparently they use coded (qualified) welders which suggests they have welding procedures also.

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Adri

Post subject: Re: Advice: Titanium Frame

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:57 am

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 12:45 pm
Posts: 1165
Location: In the Woods

@Scapin/Dean: are you sure of those figures (800+ Dean, 1000+ Moots)?
I was under the impression that Dean welds for a lot of no-name and name (ie Epic) brands, how come their figure is so low then?

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Last edited by Adri on Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:49 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Adri

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:21 am

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 12:45 pm
Posts: 1165
Location: In the Woods

pyf wrote:

The dropouts are not Dean dropouts, they are (not a 100% sure information) made by Paragon like a lot of dropouts for serious titanium framebuilders are.

hope these informations help
best regards
pyf

The hooded dropouts as on your frame (and mine :wink:

) are called "Breezer dropouts" . Ask Joe Breezer for how they originated.

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Last edited by Adri on Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Adri

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:37 am

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 12:45 pm
Posts: 1165
Location: In the Woods

Scapin/Dean wrote:

An old thread, but now have enough miles/experience with my Dean El Diente to comment. The arguuments about who makes the most beautiful bike/best welds/customer service issues/etc. aside, I can only say that after some 600 miles, my Dean is, BY FAR, the nicest riding, handling, responsive, comfortable bicycle I've ever riden. Not sure what the magic is with titanium, but it absorbs road roughness like nothing else while still being very stiff and responsive. I did 75 miles in the hills of SE PA yesterday and it was superb! Nice and stiff for climbs and rock-solid at 40+ on the downhills. I'm sure that the Record group, FSA compact crankset & RD-400 wheels and Alpha Q Sub3 fork and other bits had something to do with it, but I've used similar set-ups on my other high-end bikes and nothing compares. Steel may be real, but Titanium rules. Can't wait for the BTC next month.

Amen to that, after all looks are one thing, but THE RIDE is the most important. And indeed, titanium rulez !

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Scapin/Dean

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:48 pm

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:08 pm
Posts: 110
Location: South NJ Shore

Adri - I am quoting what the folks at both Dean and Moots told me. Perhaps Dean is higher if one counts the aluminum and steel frames they have welded outside. But Dean stated 800+ titanium and Moots stated ~1000 frames (they only build titanium at this point - used to do some steel). I can't imagine very many more frames going through the Dean shop due to its limited size. I can imagine two or three times the capacity going through Moots, though, as it is so large.

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Just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean we aren't out to get you.
Those who ignore histroy are doomed to repeat it.

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bobalou

Post subject: Re: Kish Fabrication ti road

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:38 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:05 am
Posts: 987

cadence90 wrote:

bobalou wrote:

cadence90 wrote:

Nice of you to follow up.
It sounds like you had a nice tour of both facilities, and some very nice riding!
I'm glad you like the Dean.
I like my Kish!

Got any photos yet, Cadence? Also, did you decide on a computer?

As far as the computer, I'm torn between the Vetta you suggested and the new Cateye double wireless (but no one seems to know much about it yet...).

That frame looks great .. some of the cleanest welds in the biz. :thumbup:

Molto bene!

If I ever build a Ti bike I'll look real close at Kish, sounds like you've had a good experience. What size is that frame and do you know it's weight?

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cadence90

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:52 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:52 am
Posts: 1610

Adri wrote:

pyf wrote:

The hooded dropouts as on your frame (and mine :wink:

) are called "Breezer dropouts" . Ask Joe Breezer for how they originated.

"Breezer style" AKA "Wright" hooded dropouts were invented by the Wright Brothers. Those guys could really fly!!!! :wink:

Paragon and Arctos Machine make the best titanium ones now.

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"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri

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