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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:24 pm 
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Posts: 974
Alumen wrote:
Shrike wrote:
Alumen wrote:
Is your helmet aero ? Check...
Are you sitting in an aero position ? Check...

Nice to haves:
Aero handlebar, check...
Aero & integrated calipers, check...
Aero front wheel, check...
Tyre in line with the rim, check...

Behind the vertical line of these items, there is too much turbulence for anything that is being called "aero" to be real aero. Myth debunked.

That said, I love the looks of the Madone !!!


Source for this aero threshold you’ve set a definition upon?


Too much information to mention in 9 years of sub top triathlon experience...

Just think twice and use your common sense, what happens with the air flows after that the air hits these parts ?


The same thing that happens to all other parts - varying degrees of turbulence.

I'm still wondering what the threshold is for something to become 'real aero'. What exactly does this mean.


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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:24 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Posts: 507
Location: Madison, WI USA
Calnago wrote:
I think Trek is a great company. But “whitepapers” come in several flavors. Purely technical, which the engineers will take to study the goods and bads objectively stated, then the purely marketing which is laughable to all except the most gullible, then a combo of the two (with a heavier weight on the marketing side). The latter is what the public is generally privy too. Enough technical stuff with the right spin to make it possibly believable to even some of the less gullible while at the same time ensuring that there is no doubt left why this company’s product is best of the bunch.
I think you need to look no further than the Executive Summary to know what the ultimate goal of this white paper is and on which side of the technical/marketing side it straddles. No surprises here.


I'm sorry; I don't quite follow. I think you're trying to say something cynical, but I can't tell what. What are you saying, exactly, about the Madone white paper?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:54 pm 
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I think you followed it just fine.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Nope. I'm guessing you don't like the Madone white paper, but I haven't the foggiest idea why.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:16 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
try riding round an indoor track on a tradtional frame like my sannino and my look 795. the difference between the two bikes will be real it may not be huge and some may not think it worth while but that is a different matter but to say a frame with aero profiled tubes is not going to be quicker than a traditional bike with round tubes is itself laughable (if rider posititon is exactly the same). All there has to be is a 10% difference in frame CdA that that will equate to a 2% reduction in CDA for the rider and bike. That of the order of what wheels can do and tyres. Order by the way refers to the order of magnitude not that is is the same value. Trek seem to be claiming a much bigger change of around 25% the madone which may be possible. I know i am quicker on my look than on the sannino but i also know my postion is not the same on both simply because they are different bikes. what trek have shown is very small changes can have a measurable impact on aerodynamics. ms underwood showed that with hand position.

So at 250W that could be around a 5W or something of that order. aero frames are another one of those incremental improvements that by itself adds little but use all of them and you get a fair bit faster.

So an aero frame is simply something that allows a rider to be quicker that will come from position and the frame. why folk have got worked up over this thread i dont know. what the point in getting worked up.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:34 pm 
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youngs_modulus wrote:
Nope. I'm guessing you don't like the Madone white paper, but I haven't the foggiest idea why.


He's a aero denier. Don't mind him. Just a kgt jr. who comes and trolls aero related threads.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:50 pm 
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My post was just a simple commentary on “white papers” in general. Not at all an “aero denier”, just don’t care about it as much as some folks. In fact, if I really had any desire to get an “aero” road bike, it would likely be a Madone. But as far as bike frames go, aero is not at the top of my list of priorities. Pretty simple.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:23 pm 
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Location: Madison, WI USA
What commentary?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:05 am 
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Location: Southern California
Test rode a modest spec'd Madone 9 and a Pinarello F8 (F10 not available in my size) two weeks ago. Honestly the Madone was disappointing. The ride was harsh and nothing about it made me pull my credit card out. The F8 was vastly a better bike. It was agile, sharp handling, and held speed really well. But in all honesty I didn't feel it was in anyway better than my 2017 TCR SL. I ended up buying a Bianchi Oltre XR4 frameset even though non were available to test ride.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:04 am 
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Posts: 406
Thank you bm0p700f for putting it into perspective.

Alumen as well...

I think its in the bike designers interest to emphasize that the bike works as a whole. That its a magic recipe that is too complicated to understand.

Normally to understand something you need to break it down and analyze it. Wouldn't a madone be faster at 0 yaw with the rear wheel kissing the seat tube? Wouldn't it be faster with slighty less truncated tube profiles and narrower tubes? Wouldn't it be faster with the front wheel digging into a cutout of the down tube? Wouldn't it be faster if the fork crown was as narrow as the P5x?

The answer is of course no until the next iteration of the madone is out. :D

/a


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:33 am 
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Noctiluxx wrote:
Test rode a modest spec'd Madone 9 and a Pinarello F8 (F10 not available in my size) two weeks ago. Honestly the Madone was disappointing. The ride was harsh and nothing about it made me pull my credit card out. The F8 was vastly a better bike. It was agile, sharp handling, and held speed really well. But in all honesty I didn't feel it was in anyway better than my 2017 TCR SL. I ended up buying a Bianchi Oltre XR4 frameset even though non were available to test ride.


Um, no. Wrong you are.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:02 am 
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Posts: 406
Let people have an opinion.

Respectfully disagree.

One person's voice does not make a concensus.

Thank you for sharing! I think we would like to hear everyones experience on the matter.

/a


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:35 am 
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Location: Madison, WI USA
I'm confused by Noctiluxx's post...the Madone's ride is famously plush due to the Isospeed decoupler. Noxctiluxx, can you clarify what you meant?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:57 am 
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Is it plush or just plush for an aero bike?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:11 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:55 am
Posts: 14
alcatraz wrote:
Let people have an opinion.

Respectfully disagree.

One person's voice does not make a concensus.

Thank you for sharing! I think we would like to hear everyones experience on the matter.

/a

+1, there seems to be a lot of raging and attacks going on here which just turns people off participating


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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:11 am 


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