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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:39 am 
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Posts: 507
Location: Madison, WI USA
Noctiluxx wrote:
youngs_modulus wrote:
Noctiluxx, I'm asking nicely: what makes you say the Madone rides harshly, and what was your impression of the Isospeed decoupler?

Lets move on man. I just didn't enjoy the ride and ended up with another bike. I don't owe an apology to anyone for my decision. That is all.


Huh?

Are you maybe confusing my posts with someone else’s?

If not, what part of “I’m glad you got the bike that’s right for you” didn’t you understand?


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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:39 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:32 am 
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Posts: 875
prendrefeu wrote:
tranzformer wrote:
When a review goes completely against what 'professional' reviews have stated, what owners on the forum have stated, it means you throw out the n=1 review that not only doesn't make sense, but that also goes against the grain of what the 99.9% state. Just because a .1% believe the world is flat, doesn't make the world flat. Regardless of how much 'evidence' they might point to nor how convinced they are in their opinion. Wrong is still wrong. Just because someone would come on and state the Colnago C59 or C60 are harsh riding, as stiff as a wet noodle and lacks any road feel, does not make it so when that isn't even true. Nothing points to the current Madone 9 as being harsh. Nothing points to the Madone 9 as not being a great ride. Regardless of if it is one's opinion. It is still an incorrect assessment, just like stating the world is flat. Reviews can be wrong. Even if a reviewers thinks it is just personal 'opinion.'


So you're saying that a qualitative review of sensory experience, not a quantitative one, is 'wrong' when it is solely based on an individual's personal opinion and experience even after that reviewer explicitly stated that is was their own personal take on it and in no way are they claiming an authority of opinion over other people?

Do you realize how a living experience based on your proposed approach would be absolutely miserable to everyone but you?

Qualities of [X] can be assumed when there is a reliable source of quantitative data which has strong tendencies to reflect qualities of a performance variable.
But - and this is important - sensory perception of experience which is solely upon the individual at that time and place DO NOT have quantitative data.
While one person may disagree with another person's perception of experience, no matter which perspective is agreed upon by others who have also attempted to replicate the experience (which is actually an impossibility, no experience ever in the history of this universe can ever be exactly replicated for more than one being), in no way is any one person's perspective deemed invalid.

To deem another person's perspective based on their own sensory experience invalid is beyond insane. The only persons who do that are psychopaths and total narcissists (neither of which is mutually exclusive to the other).


Image


We do have quantitative data regarding the comfort of this bike. That quantitative data is superior than any qualitative data anyone in this thread is trying to blow up fellow forum members rear ends.

Yes, a person's personal opinion based on their existence and shared experience can be wrong. Regardless of how much and strongly they feel they are correct. Especially when it isn't supported by data (actually goes against current data we have) and goes against what owners, those that actually own the bike and have ridden it more than just ten minutes. So yeah, I will take data that backs up the premise that the Madone 9 is comfortable.

I think Noctiluxx has a bias of some sort or his perception of the bike (for whatever reason) was completely distorted from reality. His shared experience matches none other that have spent considerable time on the same frame nor that which has gone through testing.


Good article on how our brain can trick us into being deceived: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... n-deceive/

That is why, don't trust personal feelings. Look at the data.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:04 am 
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Location: Los Feliz, Los Angeles, California
Data points to a feature which is assumed to be an indicator of comfort, however, again - and until the end of all time - this is not universal and never will be.

Let me re-quote it for you because you may have missed it:

prendrefeu wrote:
But - and this is important - sensory perception of experience which is solely upon the individual at that time and place DO NOT have quantitative data.
While one person may disagree with another person's perception of experience, no matter which perspective is agreed upon by others who have also attempted to replicate the experience (which is actually an impossibility, no experience ever in the history of this universe can ever be exactly replicated for more than one being), in no way is any one person's perspective deemed invalid.


And guess what you did? You stated that another person's sensory perception of experience is invalid even though that person stated explicitly that is their own perception and in no way authoritative.


prendrefeu wrote:
To deem another person's perspective based on their own sensory experience invalid is beyond insane. The only persons who do that are psychopaths and total narcissists (neither of which is mutually exclusive to the other).


Yet you keep pointing to things which do not refute another person's own individual experience.


As for your original drawing of a parallel to the 'earth being round' - well, that is a cherry-picked comparison. The earth's shape (a spheroid) is known because of calculation. A person's individual perception of it being flat is valid. That's their perception not a reality. A person can perfectly recognize that the earth is not flat yet still have the sensory experience at some point in their lives that the earth feels flat. Does that invalidate their perception? Not at all. That person is not refuting the data, they are not even talking about the data. They are simply pointing at their own individual experience.

You would have been better off using an example such as temperature....
For example, the several scientists, institutions, meteorologists and attractively-dressed news persons will tell you that the temperature is hot today. The thermometer will also indicate this. People sweating profusely with little-to-no physical exertion will also reinforce this. It is, factually, a day with high temperatures. On this same day you encounter someone who states that they are feeling cold and chooses to wear a sweater. Are they saying "no, the temperature is not high" ?? No, they are not. They are only speaking of their own perception of the day - which, by the way, is their perception, not yours. You are not them. You can never be them. They could be feeling sick (influenza), or perhaps they have a hereditary issue that causes body temperatures to drop quickly. You have no clue, and that's fine. That is their own perception. There is nothing wrong with their own individual perception.

There you go, an example where 'data' points to something, a crowd of 'experts' points to the same thing, yet someone feels differently without refuting the data, and that someone isn't "wrong" (your words) at all.

Your argument, twice, committed the following logical fallacies:
Appeal-to-Authority
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
Where you assume that because paid journalists report their perceptions and then show a data which they state correlates to said perceptions it is then factual and the same perception for all persons.

Bandwagon
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon
A lot of other people feel a certain way about something, someone doesn't... well... shun the non-believer...Shun! Shun! Shunnnnnn!

False-cause
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause
This isn't your fault, the people reviewing bikes also do this too. It has [X] data-showing [Y] (let's say flex) therefore it's more comfortable.

Fairwheel Bikes' reviews are intelligent: they do not make claims of comfort, that's up to you. If something is more flexible than another... is it good? is it bad? That's up to you, they just show data.

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Last edited by prendrefeu on Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:10 am 
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Posts: 283
Some perceptions are more questionable than others. When Trek Madone has the best vibration absorbing mechanism at seat post, someone says it's worse than a Pina... and is against most comments... I think it's a legitimate questioning of the perception... yes it's the other's perception but it's almost a fringe and abnormal one. no right or wrong...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:29 am 
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Location: Los Feliz, Los Angeles, California
Noctiluxx's experience may not be in alignment with the majority, but certainly he is not a fringe because we do not have any globally accepted cases where a fringe (typically less than 2% of a sample) is calculable. You want to start a survey on WW where people have ridden a number of bikes in questioned and chose one or the other for 'comfort' ? Your sample size would be too small, even if everyone who ever had an account on this site came back and truthfully answered the survey. Even most online surveys are victim to the bandwagon fallacy.

And, let's be honest here, most journalism for sports equipment falls into the 'bandwagon' fallacy and the 'I'll go along with the top sponsors because they're more likely to support the industry' issue.
Does that invalidate the data? No. Does that invalidate all journalism? No.
But to take either of those as authority when it comes to an individual's sensory perception is just...well... naïve.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:46 am 
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Location: Athens, Greece
At least I now know how the moderators choose to deal with our forum. Sad...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:01 am 
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Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:35 am
Posts: 68
kgt wrote:
At least I now know how the moderators choose to deal with our forum. Sad...



Hey- you said you weren’t following this topic anymore!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 4439
Location: Natovi Landing
Does anyone ever think these threads lose perspective? :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:24 am
Posts: 63
To change tack slightly. I have always admired the madone as I think it is about as uncompromising as you can get. Very aero, from most accounts very comfortable and smooth, pretty good weight, to my eye looks amazingly clean and slick.

One question. What is the consensus on the brakes vs dura ace brakes. Are they strong and are the not too fiddly to adjust?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Location: Islip, NY
kgt wrote:
At least I now know how the moderators choose to deal with our forum. Sad...


This nonsense is no worse than the way in which you devalue the site when you click on anything with the word aero in it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:30 am
Posts: 465
jlok wrote:
Some perceptions are more questionable than others. When Trek Madone has the best vibration absorbing mechanism at seat post, someone says it's worse than a Pina... and is against most comments... I think it's a legitimate questioning of the perception... yes it's the other's perception but it's almost a fringe and abnormal one. no right or wrong...



Exactly. When someone posts a comment about a bike after being on it for 10 minutes that goes completely against what other owners and even standardized testing shows, then yeah, said person deserves to be called out for questionable comment that doesn't align with what everyone else has said. Why would anyone just let that comment pass? There is obviously a major disconnect between Noctiluxx and how he rides a bike/where he road/how long he road or even if he rode a Madone 9. As his opinion doesn't fit with reality.

So if someone says a Cipo NK1K or Bond frame are flimsy and have too much flex, you don't think that member would get called out for not knowing what they are talking about? Of course they would and kgt would be first to call them out.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Southern California
Ahillock wrote:
jlok wrote:
Some perceptions are more questionable than others. When Trek Madone has the best vibration absorbing mechanism at seat post, someone says it's worse than a Pina... and is against most comments... I think it's a legitimate questioning of the perception... yes it's the other's perception but it's almost a fringe and abnormal one. no right or wrong...



Exactly. When someone posts a comment about a bike after being on it for 10 minutes that goes completely against what other owners and even standardized testing shows, then yeah, said person deserves to be called out for questionable comment that doesn't align with what everyone else has said. Why would anyone just let that comment pass? There is obviously a major disconnect between Noctiluxx and how he rides a bike/where he road/how long he road or even if he rode a Madone 9. As his opinion doesn't fit with reality.


Interesting as my first 10 minutes with the Pinarello F8 were rather enjoyable.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:28 am 
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This forum is there so that we can share our opinions, right?

I personally enjoy reading the different opinions...

And if someone says he feels it like XYZ then he does feel it like this. And someone else may feel it differently.

We are all humans...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:43 am 
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Location: Brisbane
prendrefeu wrote:
And, let's be honest here, most journalism for sports equipment falls into the 'bandwagon' fallacy and the 'I'll go along with the top sponsors because they're more likely to support the industry' issue.
Does that invalidate the data? No. Does that invalidate all journalism? No.
But to take either of those as authority when it comes to an individual's sensory perception is just...well... naïve.


This

I was extremely disappointed when my favourite cycling magazine (ride) decided to can their 15-minute roundtable impressions section prior to the actual review. In my mind, these short impressions were far more accurate than the actual review which often turned out to be gushing praise about every bike over $5k.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:20 am 
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silvalis wrote:
prendrefeu wrote:
And, let's be honest here, most journalism for sports equipment falls into the 'bandwagon' fallacy and the 'I'll go along with the top sponsors because they're more likely to support the industry' issue.
Does that invalidate the data? No. Does that invalidate all journalism? No.
But to take either of those as authority when it comes to an individual's sensory perception is just...well... naïve.


This

I was extremely disappointed when my favourite cycling magazine (ride) decided to can their 15-minute roundtable impressions section prior to the actual review. In my mind, these short impressions were far more accurate than the actual review which often turned out to be gushing praise about every bike over $5k.



Yepp...for premium bikes most reviews (magazines and online) are only positive nowadays. Usually you can read the same text given by the marketing departments. Sometimes they also only take the official pictures. Sad.

That‘s one reason I am in WW forum so that I can hear other opinions (which are usually also very well explained or documented)!


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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:20 am 


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