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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:22 pm 
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I have this bike since 2011, and is my first road bike. Somehow help me to make transition from MTB to Road.

Anyway, i had always problem with the headset play. Probably the main problem was made by the local guy who service/sell Pinarello's and who cut the fork, since the play was from first day, and except overtitgheting (when i checked lke 7-8 nm, which is excess) the headset he did not done anything else (which lead to replacing the bearings every few months. But maybe his itention was that, since i realized is not fair guy to work with....) So it was overtighten (and small play) or not overtighten and bigger play (before i checked his work my self, and i guess too late...One of the reason why is good to check/service things by ur self.. anyway in that time i did not had tools, nor time.. But different story..)

Anyway, i place the bike in other shop and different country (no Pinarello dedicated), and they noticed some wearing in the fork (in the part where bearings contact the fork), so suggested to get a new fork/bearings.. And i found second hand fork (not payed cheap), and just waited to replace it.. Since i bought a new bike after a while, this bike was not riden so much after that, and most of the time on trainer and rarely by my gf..

And this days i wanted to be my winter bike so i replaced the fork finally (in other local shop, Bianchi dealers), and u guess the play is there again (a bit less, but still there).. So i realized that probably it was not the fault in the fork..

So yesterday i decided to try to do it my self..

I removed the bearings, and noticed they are a bit rough down, and ok on the top (i found same dimension localy, and cheap, so ill buy them to replace them just in case (the bearings i have now, are replaced last time by the guy in who i lost trust, so just in case...)..


Just to mention, when we replaced the fork few days ago, the bearings came out together with the fork (the down one), which was a bit strange, since i know this bearing have to be pressed in in the headtube, to be tight inside..

Yesterday when i was dissasembling everything again the bearing come out together with the fork again, and noticed some metal particles from the headtube (alloy there), like headtube was wearing out....

I put the original fork yesterday, and there is a bit more play then with replacable fork bought, and still bearings come out of headtube very easy..

The headset cup is ok, and rubber rings are ok. The fork thing that come inside the fork, and is used for tightening is ok. On the top there is enough spacers to provide enough space for the bolt and tightening system.

What i plan to do:

1. To replace the bearings, just in case

2. To replace the rubber rings on the headset cup, just in case

3. To check again one fork and another, and to realize if there is bigger or smaller play depended of the fork..


But the fact that bearings come very easy with the fork (and got stucked on the fork, so i install them together with fork now), plus that metal particles, suggest me that maybe headtube is damaged and is ovalized (i'll measure it to check, dont heave measuring tool in this moment).


What do u suggest about this? Any other ideas? And what if the headtube is ovalized? What options i have except superglue+baking soda trick (i guess i'll aply some superglue+baking soda on the bearing outside part, and install it like that in the headtube).

Thanks in advance..


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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:22 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
I see that there's no answers yet so I'll try.

Firstly you say "play". Normally this means you can feel it by locking the front brake and rocking the bike back and forward.

Is that correct?

If so, it means that the assembly was wrong from the start and you should not have ridden the bike at all until it was fixed.

After six years of using it like that it's impossible so say what damage may have been caused.

I suspect the stack was wrong initially, preventing the proper preload, but that's only a guess.

You show a couple of misunderstandings about how a threadless headset works:

Quote:
since the play was from first day, and except overtitgheting (when i checked lke 7-8 nm, which is excess)

There is no set torque value for the top cap. It should be tightened enough so that there's no play. If play cannot be eliminated than the first thing to check is the stack to ensure that the cap is not bottoming on the steerer tube.

Quote:
when we replaced the fork few days ago, the bearings came out together with the fork (the down one), which was a bit strange, since i know this bearing have to be pressed in in the headtube,

You seem worried about bearings dropping out. It's normal. They are not a press fit. The system relies on the taper of the bearings and seats, when compressed, to be stable.

You seem to have been badly advised so far, and need to improve your understanding of how these things work. I can only suggest you find a better mechanic to check it in person, and see if it's possible to recover a workable and safe solution. The internet can only help so much.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Location: FIN
bikerjulio wrote:

You seem worried about bearings dropping out. It's normal. They are not a press fit.


Are you absolutely sure that Pinarello FP3 has not press fit headset bearings ?

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I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Posts: 187
Having a hard time remembering, but I am pretty sure my FP3 had a pressfit lower headset bearing actually. I did have some issues with longevity with that bearing as well. I believe i went through two new ones in a season (I normally have to replace them every 3 or 4 years on my other bikes...). It was a strange design with the head set bearing set up in the head tube a little bit.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Yes, some Pinarellos did indeed have pressfit cartridge bearings in the headset. I’ve had to use a bearing extractor to remove them. It wasn’t an FP3 but it was probably the same vintage. They look more like just large non angular cartridge wheel bearings. If they are these type and they are just “falling out” then indeed there is a problem.

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C59 Five Years Later
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:07 pm 
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bikerjulio wrote:
I see that there's no answers yet so I'll try.

Firstly you say "play". Normally this means you can feel it by locking the front brake and rocking the bike back and forward.

Is that correct?



First simptoms was when i go down from sidewalk, some clunking in the headset. Of course i get back to the "service guy", and he insist that is normal. When u lock the brakes there was no play when u rocking bike back and forward (since it was everything overtighten).

Next simptoms was front end become totaly unstable going high speed (like 50-60 km/h), and specially side wind.

Again i reacted, buy that "service guy" was convincing me that is normal.

And thirt stage was not having play from rockin brakes, but after some ride play again (when u hold brakes and rock ur bike forward/backward). And this play beeing more and more (and when u overtighten u can feel the roughness of bearing, but play still there).

U must understund that i was coming from whole life riding MTB (from 1998 with suspension fork), and never ever had a chance to ride a Road before. So this FP3 was my first road, and switched from MTb to road then.. On MTB i know how to replace oil in the fork, or disks, and totaly different everything (i had Specialized Stumpjumper 1999), then Specialized EPIC Marathon Carbon 2007 (i still ride this one).



The idea was to buy the cheapest nice bike i found, and if like to upgrade in the future.

Also i was working a lot, and totaly without any free time to service my self (also did not have proper tools). So that why i went to "best Pinarello service guy", and went there with a friend who i trust him..

But last few years, we realize that that "service guy" is not honest, and ass*ole and if u did not buy from him, then he can do something like that (overtighen spokes and broken rim for example, or warranty issue which he refuse to do it and blame customers.. Or we found that so many people replace bearings every few months...Also he is working in semi legal way, but declare him self as Pinarello dealer.. When i went to Pinarello in Italy last year, i realized he is not official dealer. He just buy things like regular guy on Sales (even second hand then clean them up, and sell as new sometimes), just to have idea. Of course then i did not know this.. I just wanted to go in nice service, and not so many service options where i live..

Of course last two years i service things my self and u realize now why. Also now u realize why i started buying my own tools (ok, i found that i like working my self) (and i will never ever buy something or suggest to someone to buy something from that guy,or to bring something for service..

And this is not just me.. I found many of local guys who ride a lot to refuse to buy anything Pinarello, and they switch to different brands just because of this. How he was succesfull?? In that period there was not so many bike shops where u can buy nice Road Bike, and he was only one who was selling Campagnolo.. Lucku us there is now nice official Campagnolo and Bianchi dealer, so there is no need at all to go there. The same guy sometimes was refusing to sell something (when he know that someone need something urgently), just to play like he is very important and u have to care about him. Not him about u as customers.. Im sorry that i got this stories from people late.. But never mind.. Nice lesson learned..Anyway no need to waste time about this "service", lets continue in trying to solve the problem...

Quote:
If so, it means that the assembly was wrong from the start and you should not have ridden the bike at all until it was fixed.

After six years of using it like that it's impossible so say what damage may have been caused.

I suspect the stack was wrong initially, preventing the proper preload, but that's only a guess.

You show a couple of misunderstandings about how a threadless headset works:



Since did not have enough time, and injuries in 2015 , and also was riding MTB this bike was not riden too much (like 5000 km overall). When i found that i like road bikes, i bought a new C60. I explained the whole situation few lines before this.. But ok.. Maybe there is some fault at my side as well, but sometimes u trust to some service guys.. And maybe i dont understunt everything, but here im to learn :) (maybe too late now).

Quote:
Quote:
since the play was from first day, and except overtitgheting (when i checked lke 7-8 nm, which is excess)

There is no set torque value for the top cap. It should be tightened enough so that there's no play. If play cannot be eliminated than the first thing to check is the stack to ensure that the cap is not bottoming on the steerer tube.



I checked this many times.. As u can see on this picture stack is more then enough. Also i was checking many times if plug that u install in the fork is ok or not.. So if was that simple, i would not have problem :)

Image

Quote:
when we replaced the fork few days ago, the bearings came out together with the fork (the down one), which was a bit strange, since i know this bearing have to be pressed in in the headtube,

Quote:
You seem worried about bearings dropping out. It's normal. They are not a press fit. The system relies on the taper of the bearings and seats, when compressed, to be stable.



This is the bearings i removed, and this is the same sistem i have:

ImageImage


And i guess i have the same system:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic ... lo-headset

Seem that is often problem of Pinarello's

Quote:
You seem to have been badly advised so far, and need to improve your understanding of how these things work. I can only suggest you find a better mechanic to check it in person, and see if it's possible to recover a workable and safe solution. The internet can only help so much.


One of the things why i follow forums is to learn the things and understund how they work.. Now im trying exactly what u suggest :)

But never mind. If u understund how this work, and if u have idea how to fix it now, please suggest the solution.. Or what i can do right now, as i it is to try to ride this frame and bike.. If there is sollution..

Calnago wrote:
Yes, some Pinarellos did indeed have pressfit cartridge bearings in the headset. I’ve had to use a bearing extractor to remove them. It wasn’t an FP3 but it was probably the same vintage. They look more like just large non angular cartridge wheel bearings. If they are these type and they are just “falling out” then indeed there is a problem.


spandexboy817 wrote:
Having a hard time remembering, but I am pretty sure my FP3 had a pressfit lower headset bearing actually. I did have some issues with longevity with that bearing as well. I believe i went through two new ones in a season (I normally have to replace them every 3 or 4 years on my other bikes...). It was a strange design with the head set bearing set up in the head tube a little bit.


I'll post again the link of headset explained in Fp2 and i guess is the same in Fp3 as well..

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic ... lo-headset

And again the picture of the bearings (down one, and top one). So is there any solution u suggest to try to solve this problem?

ImageImage

Thanks a lot to everyone..


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
I'm glad to see you got some other replies.

I assumed this was just a conventional integrated headset, so perhaps my comment on the bearings was wrong.

Pinarello must be different. Why, I don't know. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will help.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Ok, this is a funky design and pretty rare, but I've worked on one before a long time ago and now that I see it I remember a couple of things unique about it. Firstly, it is NOT at all like any normal headset assembly that we see these days.

Also, I can't tell over the internet just how much the bearings are worn, and whether or not they are even a close fit to the headttube. But here's how you assemble it, without a proper press etc..

I should also say that if everything is correct, it will take a good mallet to pound the fork out of the headtube, since the lower bearing is both a pressfit into the headtube and the inner race is a pressfit onto the steertube. It will not just "fall out". If it does, then that's a problem that needs to be addressed separately, perhaps with some thicker retaining compound like Loctite 638.

So, let's assume everything is apart.

Grease up the lower headtube seat and the lower bearing. Put the bearing in the lower headtube. If you can push it all the way in by hand, then well, that's not so good, but do it anyway for now. If you can't push it in by hand, that is good and it may still be salvageable. You'll see how you press it in all the way AND onto the steertube in a minute.

Insert the fork through the bottom all the way through the top and put the top bearing on and compression ring and all the spacers. Here's where you need to add a big spacer on top, like way above the steertube top, to be able to pull the entire fork up and press (in this case "pull" from above) the lower bearing into the lower headtube and onto the steertube all at once. You'll remove the excess spacers later.

Make sure the compression plug is tight inside the steertube (you will be exerting a lot of force on it to pull the steertube up and seat it in the lower bearing and headtube so it can't be sliding up inside). Put the top cap on and the screw that anchors it to the compression plug. Because of the big gap with the excess spacers, you may have to get a much longer screw to reach at this point.

Now, you just keep tightening that screw until it pulls the fork all the way up and seats in the lower bearing and headtube. This should take quite a bit of force actually, which may be the reason you thought it had been previously "overtightened". Remember, it is not like the vast majority of headsets currently in use today.

Once you have the fork pulled all the way through, and you should know when because it will get very hard to tighten as it butts up against both the lower headset seat and the steertube's baseplate. It is pushing against the outer race of the bearing; it is not like a system where overtightening it will cause the bearing to bind, but it has to be tight enough to fully seat the lower bearing in the lower headtube and the steertube simultaneously.

Once the fork/steertube is pulled all way up and seated in the lower bearing and headtube, then remove the excess spacer(s), put on the top cap and other spacers etc. and lock her down.

If you do all this correctly, and still have play, well there's not much you can do because either the bearings are shot (and non adjustable like a cup and cone system in say, a high end campy hub) or the fit between the bearings and the headtube is out of tolerance (Loctite retaining compound to the rescue, maybe, if you're lucky).

Good luck.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Posts: 794
Calnago wrote:
Ok, this is a funky design and pretty rare, but I've worked on one before a long time ago and now that I see it I remember a couple of things unique about it. Firstly, it is NOT at all like any normal headset assembly that we see these days.

Also, I can't tell over the internet just how much the bearings are worn, and whether or not they are even a close fit to the headttube. But here's how you assemble it, without a proper press etc..

I should also say that if everything is correct, it will take a good mallet to pound the fork out of the headtube, since the lower bearing is both a pressfit into the headtube and the inner race is a pressfit onto the steertube. It will not just "fall out". If it does, then that's a problem that needs to be addressed separately, perhaps with some thicker retaining compound like Loctite 638.

So, let's assume everything is apart.

Grease up the lower headtube seat and the lower bearing. Put the bearing in the lower headtube. If you can push it all the way in by hand, then well, that's not so good, but do it anyway for now. If you can't push it in by hand, that is good and it may still be salvageable. You'll see how you press it in all the way AND onto the steertube in a minute.

Insert the fork through the bottom all the way through the top and put the top bearing on and compression ring and all the spacers. Here's where you need to add a big spacer on top, like way above the steertube top, to be able to pull the entire fork up and press (in this case "pull" from above) the lower bearing into the lower headtube and onto the steertube all at once. You'll remove the excess spacers later.

Make sure the compression plug is tight inside the steertube (you will be exerting a lot of force on it to pull the steertube up and seat it in the lower bearing and headtube so it can't be sliding up inside). Put the top cap on and the screw that anchors it to the compression plug. Because of the big gap with the excess spacers, you may have to get a much longer screw to reach at this point.

Now, you just keep tightening that screw until it pulls the fork all the way up and seats in the lower bearing and headtube. This should take quite a bit of force actually, which may be the reason you thought it had been previously "overtightened". Remember, it is not like the vast majority of headsets currently in use today.

Once you have the fork pulled all the way through, and you should know when because it will get very hard to tighten as it butts up against both the lower headset seat and the steertube's baseplate. It is pushing against the outer race of the bearing; it is not like a system where overtightening it will cause the bearing to bind, but it has to be tight enough to fully seat the lower bearing in the lower headtube and the steertube simultaneously.

Once the fork/steertube is pulled all way up and seated in the lower bearing and headtube, then remove the excess spacer(s), put on the top cap and other spacers etc. and lock her down.

If you do all this correctly, and still have play, well there's not much you can do because either the bearings are shot (and non adjustable like a cup and cone system in say, a high end campy hub) or the fit between the bearings and the headtube is out of tolerance (Loctite retaining compound to the rescue, maybe, if you're lucky).

Good luck.


Thanks Calnago for ur reply. I done exactly what u described yesterday (to remove the fork hat to use mallet on the top, of course using some cloth on it...) and fork fall down.. Also i remove the down bearing since i feel the play is there..

Firstly i wanted to buy imediatilly new bearings but found old one, so decide to check with that one first. I was able to put the bearing in one part of headtube by hand, but from that part had to use some press. Since i did not have proper one, i tried to improvize using BB PressFit i bought few weeks ago, and i made small problem, the bearing was stucked in the headtube since did not go properly seated on all sides.. Then i remove it, and put it more carefully, but had to damage it i a little bit ... I guess it's a good sign that i could not press all the way using my fingers/hand, and ill do it again the same, but buying brand new bearing, and using the proper press fit tool this time.

About installing the fork back, i done as u described as i saw on this video, but next time ill try using longer bolt as well.

The video where i saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l448CuZLv14

Also before that, i put a rod on the fork dropouts and hit with mallet to try to push it as far as possible...

I'll try tommorow, so i guess if that did no work, the last chance will be Loctite solution. Another solution i saw is using some tefln tape on the bearing before installation, or using superglue/bicarbonate trick...

Worst case scenario: I'll have FullTime Trainer bike :( at least if this did not work.

Thank u again for good advices u gave me.. Seem that Pinarello design is pretty bad as im understunding and a lot of potential problems here? Or im wrong about this?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:49 pm 
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3Pio wrote:
Also before that, i put a rod on the fork dropouts and hit with mallet to try to push it as far as possible...
Don't do that, pull it through as I described from the top, nice and gradual using the extra spacers and the bolt.

3Pio wrote:
Thank u again for good advices u gave me.. Seem that Pinarello design is pretty bad as im understunding and a lot of potential problems here? Or im wrong about this?
Well, it's certainly not as easy to work on as current designs that's for sure and angular contact bearings would seem to be a much better choice for this application. But it is what it is.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
3Pio wrote:
Also before that, i put a rod on the fork dropouts and hit with mallet to try to push it as far as possible...
Don't do that, pull it through as I described from the top, nice and gradual using the extra spacers and the bolt.

3Pio wrote:
Thank u again for good advices u gave me.. Seem that Pinarello design is pretty bad as im understunding and a lot of potential problems here? Or im wrong about this?
Well, it's certainly not as easy to work on as current designs that's for sure and angular contact bearings would seem to be a much better choice for this application. But it is what it is.



Thanks... Will try some of the next days, and will share if it was sucessfull or not..

At least now i have excuse to get a Road Logic frame which im watching for long time :)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=148466


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:40 am 
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Is there anybody mentioning that there shall be a fork crown race.? Without you'll always have play in the headset.!

Image

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:18 am 
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Pina are notorious for using crap headset bearings esp in the lower end stuff, but its not a bad design.
I'd make sure the bearing is fitted properly on the fork, before refitting into the frame. Bearing to frame should only be a little more than hand pressure to fit.

Looking at your pic, you possibly have too many spacers above your stem. From experience, the expander doesn't like this, and makes it hard to adjust your headset properly. Also have you tried a different spacer beneath, maybe its faces are not parallel.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:38 pm 
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I just fixed the problem, and seem finally no play in the headset (could not believe it, that it took 5 and half years, since i had this problem from begining). And now im more then sure that "service guy" was the reason for this problem..

Ok, what i done:

1. New bearings, cost me 15 EUR BOTH

2. Removed the old Bearings

2.A Measured the headset tube if it's ovalized or not. It was not. Fork was damaged a little bit but seem not enough. But we'll see if new bearings got damaged or not. If they got damaged, i have spare fork...

3. Install the new bearings, using pressfit headset tool. (first i push them with hand, then with the tool)

4.Very important thing, headset cup.. There is rubber rings who keep the fork and are tight against the fork. In my case one was missing, second was damaged, third one ok, but not enough. So we put new rubber rings

5. Installed the headset cup in the frame


6. Put the fork in the frame.

7. Then using two stems (to get high stack), and some spacers (for missing stack height) I pulled the fork tightening the headset tightening screw (from the top ).



8. Removed the stems and spacers

9. Installed proper number of spacers, stem, and tighening the top cup very little (like 1-2 nm)

10. Torque the stem bolts

Voila.. No play, no problems..


Thanks Calnago for good advice again.... Now this is not that good thing :) Now, not havng good reason for buying a new frame :)


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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:38 pm 


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