Is 2018 the year proper race bikes with discs gain momentum?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Rick
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm

by Rick

Is this the year ?


No.

by Weenie


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kavitator
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land

by kavitator

I try some Specialized, Canyon - short rides - and disc braking is shit (same stopping power as rim brake but with squilling and added weigth)

MichaelB
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:31 am

by MichaelB

kavitator wrote:I try some Specialized, Canyon - short rides - and disc braking is shit (same stopping power as rim brake but with squilling and added weigth)


Is that the best you can do ? You forgot un-aero, ugly and a "solution looking for a problem".

Oh well, if you want to ride with rim brakes, fine, I'll stick with my discs that work better, have better modulation, work in the wet and put up with the minor weight & aero penalty. :thumbup:

fromtrektocolnago
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by fromtrektocolnago

to some extent the public will buy what is available. virtually nobody makes threaded bottom brackets so the public buys threadless either not knowing or knowing their is little alternative. eventually if the manufacturers only offer disc then the public has little choice but to migrate.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Trek 5200(ultegra)

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

MichaelB wrote:
kavitator wrote:I try some Specialized, Canyon - short rides - and disc braking is shit (same stopping power as rim brake but with squilling and added weigth)


Is that the best you can do ? You forgot un-aero, ugly and a "solution looking for a problem".

Oh well, if you want to ride with rim brakes, fine, I'll stick with my discs that work better, have better modulation, work in the wet and put up with the minor weight & aero penalty. :thumbup:

Minor weight penalty?
600g on average.....think about that for a moment, it's the difference between a respectable 1200g wheel-set and an uber low end 1800g OEM set you get on a $1000 dollar bike.

fromtrektocolnago
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Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

goes back to wet vs dry weather. dry weather my rim brakes are more than fine, in wet weather its not just braking but tire grip, so you'll pull back in either case.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Trek 5200(ultegra)

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kavitator
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Slovenia---that forest land

by kavitator

MichaelB wrote:
kavitator wrote:I try some Specialized, Canyon - short rides - and disc braking is shit (same stopping power as rim brake but with squilling and added weigth)


Is that the best you can do ? You forgot un-aero, ugly and a "solution looking for a problem".


:D

If they work as on my MTB it would be nice

I see plus for disc brakes only in carbon clincher rims

rim brakes are also good in rain - if tire has no grip ;extra stopping power has no sense. Good now are wider tires on road

youngs_modulus
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by youngs_modulus

fromtrektocolnago wrote:goes back to wet vs dry weather. dry weather my rim brakes are more than fine, in wet weather its not just braking but tire grip, so you'll pull back in either case.

On most surfaces, I have no problem lifting the rear wheel with my front brake even in wet weather; tire grip isn't a problem in a straight line. Cornering adhesion is trickier, so you can't go as fast in wet turns. But that means more braking, and more braking throws the the advantage to discs even more.

Lewn777 wrote:Minor weight penalty? 600g on average...

Currently, discs have a significant weight penalty, but let's compare apples to apples. Someone upthread suggested that the higher-end weight penalty is more like 400 grams. Plus, disc-brake rims tend to be a little lighter, though that might already be incorporated into the 400-gram number.

There's a weight penalty, yes, but it's not as big as you suggest. More importantly, that penalty will only shrink in the future.

In theory, there's a weight penalty to using discs instead of rim brakes on a mountain bike, too. But as soon as it became hard to find race-level XC forks and frames that accept rim brakes, consumers' concerns about weight penalties evaporated. The lightest "raceable" mountain bike I've seen is the 7.2 kg Open that Fairwheel built--with XTR discs. Surely there are some lighter, raceable hardtail mountain bikes out there, but do any of them have rim brakes?

The lightest mountain bikes now have discs, not rim brakes, mostly because the lightest mountain bike parts are made for disc-braked machines. At some point, development of rim-braked road bikes will cease and disc-braked bikes will be lighter than current rim-braked bikes. This is a question of when, not if.

That said, anyone who prefers rim brakes should ride them. I don't, which is why I'm saving my pennies for a disc-braked Madone. I'll ride what I like and you ride what you like: everyone wins.

MoPho
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by MoPho

Lewn777 wrote:[

Minor weight penalty?
600g on average.....think about that for a moment, it's the difference between a respectable 1200g wheel-set and an uber low end 1800g OEM set you get on a $1000 dollar bike.



Yeah, that's some real end of the world stuff right there. Will you not be able to feed your family if you are 2s slower up a climb? LOL
My weight fluctuates more than that between riding in the morning vs the afternoon.

I believe that 600g number was being thrown around like two years ago. As I mentioned earlier, my disc bike only weighs 400g (less than a pound) more than the identical rim brake version and their are disc bikes below the UCI limit already.

In addition to the 400g, I have Ultegra Di2 vs the Sram Red mech I had on my old bike, so in total my disc bike is 900g heavier than my old bike, yet it hasn't made any difference. In fact just today I took almost 2 minutes out of a PR I set with my old rim bike on a 5 mile climb. Sure it's a fun hobby to build WW bike, but in the real world all its good for is measurebating at the coffee shop. :D


.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

youngs_modulus wrote:
fromtrektocolnago wrote:goes back to wet vs dry weather. dry weather my rim brakes are more than fine, in wet weather its not just braking but tire grip, so you'll pull back in either case.

On most surfaces, I have no problem lifting the rear wheel with my front brake even in wet weather; tire grip isn't a problem in a straight line. Cornering adhesion is trickier, so you can't go as fast in wet turns. But that means more braking, and more braking throws the the advantage to discs even more.

Lewn777 wrote:Minor weight penalty? 600g on average...

Currently, discs have a significant weight penalty, but let's compare apples to apples. Someone upthread suggested that the higher-end weight penalty is more like 400 grams. Plus, disc-brake rims tend to be a little lighter, though that might already be incorporated into the 400-gram number.

There's a weight penalty, yes, but it's not as big as you suggest. More importantly, that penalty will only shrink in the future.

In theory, there's a weight penalty to using discs instead of rim brakes on a mountain bike, too. But as soon as it became hard to find race-level XC forks and frames that accept rim brakes, consumers' concerns about weight penalties evaporated. The lightest "raceable" mountain bike I've seen is the 7.2 kg Open that Fairwheel built--with XTR discs. Surely there are some lighter, raceable hardtail mountain bikes out there, but do any of them have rim brakes?

The lightest mountain bikes now have discs, not rim brakes, mostly because the lightest mountain bike parts are made for disc-braked machines. At some point, development of rim-braked road bikes will cease and disc-braked bikes will be lighter than current rim-braked bikes. This is a question of when, not if.

That said, anyone who prefers rim brakes should ride them. I don't, which is why I'm saving my pennies for a disc-braked Madone. I'll ride what I like and you ride what you like: everyone wins.

Very off tangent comparing mountain bikes to road bikes with regards to disk brakes. Firstly V-brakes where a PITA, people were keen to be rid of. Also you're riding through muck and mud so you wore through your rims real quick. Then brakes are critical to mountain biking, you're always off and on them. Road biking I can be on the flat for hours and barely touch the brakes. For mountain biking disks were complete no brainer, to suggest the same for road bikes is deliberately blinding yourself to the disadvantages.

According to professional riders who weighed their bikes they said the average difference was 600g. The minimum difference is 400g, if you want to believe that's the average, go ahead by all means. This is weight weenies adding 600g to your bike is naturally considered a bit sinful. :D

I agree disks are the future but I'll wait for a few years yet.

XCProMD
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Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

corky wrote:Cannot see why they can’t engineer a way of being able to adjust pad to rotor gap, to remove rub and to dial in preferred brake point feel......also why not include a spring in the system to make the lever feel the same as calipers, If it was placed at the lever end it would reduce the chance of lever rattle....

Brake Force One has such a concept developed for MTB and on top of that is a extremely light piece of kit.


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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

MoPho wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:[

Minor weight penalty?
600g on average.....think about that for a moment, it's the difference between a respectable 1200g wheel-set and an uber low end 1800g OEM set you get on a $1000 dollar bike.



Yeah, that's some real end of the world stuff right there. Will you not be able to feed your family if you are 2s slower up a climb? LOL
My weight fluctuates more than that between riding in the morning vs the afternoon.

I believe that 600g number was being thrown around like two years ago. As I mentioned earlier, my disc bike only weighs 400g (less than a pound) more than the identical rim brake version and their are disc bikes below the UCI limit already.

In addition to the 400g, I have Ultegra Di2 vs the Sram Red mech I had on my old bike, so in total my disc bike is 900g heavier than my old bike, yet it hasn't made any difference. In fact just today I took almost 2 minutes out of a PR I set with my old rim bike on a 5 mile climb. Sure it's a fun hobby to build WW bike, but in the real world all its good for is measurebating at the coffee shop. :D


.


People rant and rave daily about how their bike handles better, accelerates better and goes up mountains a tad faster because they just switched out a boat anchor OEM set of wheels to something much nicer and saved 500 grams. Yet you show up with some kind of post-purchase rationalization disorder on a website called weight weenies of all places talking about how 900g hasn't made any difference. People spend thousands of dollars to shed that amount weight off their bikes.

Maybe you should start a website called whogivesafigabouttheweighoftheirbikeweenies.com :lol:

Enjoy riding your bike, I'm sure it's good. I'd like to own one too, just stop trying to convince everyone else, it makes you sound like you're trying to convince yourself. :thumbup:

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keith
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by keith

Lewn777 wrote:People rant and rave daily about how their bike handles better, accelerates better and goes up mountains a tad faster because they just switched out a boat anchor OEM set of wheels to something much nicer and saved 500 grams. Yet you show up with some kind of post-purchase rationalization disorder on a website called weight weenies of all places talking about how 900g hasn't made any difference. People spend thousands of dollars to shed that amount weight off their bikes.

Maybe you should start a website called whogivesafigabouttheweighoftheirbikeweenies.com :lol:

Enjoy riding your bike, I'm sure it's good. I'd like to own one too, just stop trying to convince everyone else, it makes you sound like you're trying to convince yourself. :thumbup:


Good post :D This is weight weenies for goodness sake!!

I'm with the other points raised too. On most of my normal road rides the brakes aren't actually used very much, so there isn't a lot of logic to carrying around something heavier and trickier to maintain, etc. If something isn't used much, what is the point??

If you feel the need for disks on 'normal' (not urban) longish rides then you aren't doing it right :P Even on long descents in the Alps, I'm not on the brakes all of the time, it's good to go fast!

So, IMHO, disks are great for some things, but not really relevant for the road riding I do, most of the time.

I have disks on my 'wet bike', mainly to try and keep control of winter wear and tear, rain and road gritting/salting are a real problem over winter where I live. Also I can't bear riding on an indoor trainer of any kind, even with Zwift, so I'd much rather be outside, whatever the weather! As good as my Trek Emonda SLR8 with disks is, I still feel that my rim braked bikes are a much better ride in dry weather. Lighter is still faster...

Urban commuting in all weather, touring perhaps, all could make a case for disk use, but doesn't that really belong in another forum?
Riding my road bike in North Wales

http://www.strava.com/athletes/keith_robertson

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I did the math for my times up Old La Honda, a roughly 20min climb for me at a 270W. Losing 400g is like...a 7 second improvement, within the margin of error...swinging wide on a corner, slight headwind, hotter day, etc. I could just gain 5 watts instead and see better than 7 seconds.

by Weenie


Marin
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

fromtrektocolnago wrote:virtually nobody makes threaded bottom brackets so the public


Actually, BSA is coming back, there were more bikes with threaded BBs this year than last.

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