Is 2018 the year proper race bikes with discs gain momentum?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
TobinHatesYou
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Wheelbuilder I ride those roads on occasion, but I prefer the weather, density and proximity (to me) of the Woodside/La Honda area. It's great being able to climb up OLH, down WOLH and 84, up Tunitas almost completely under tree cover. Since I'm coming from the hills farther up the peninsula, just an out-and-back including OLH for me amounts to a 4500ft day.

Definitely going to do Mt. Hamilton more next year though. I'd like to try for a sub-1:20 time.

--

Lewn777, you're right. I'm just going to selectively ignore your disc/tubeless posts.

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wheelbuilder
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

TobinHatesYou wrote:Wheelbuilder I ride those roads on occasion, but I prefer the weather, density and proximity (to me) of the Woodside/La Honda area. It's great being able to climb up OLH, down WOLH and 84, up Tunitas almost completely under tree cover. Since I'm coming from the hills farther up the peninsula, just an out-and-back including OLH for me amounts to a 4500ft day.

Definitely going to do Mt. Hamilton more next year though. I'd like to try for a sub-1:20 time.

--

Lewn777, you're right. I'm just going to selectively ignore your disc/tubeless posts.



Nice man. I ride Woodside quite a bit. Kings Mountain is one of my favorite climbs in the entire Bay Area, and did the Portola Valley loop this morning. Nowhere near 4500 ft obviously. Maybe I don't want to ride with you if you are shooting for 1:20 on Hamilton. that is pretty damn fast. San Jose side, right? I think my PR is 1:44 or something? I really love that long-ass climb though. Try to get it in at least twice a month.

by Weenie


Lewn777
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

wheelbuilder wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
wheelbuilder wrote:
To be fair Tobin, it could be said that you have the same bias as a proponent of road tubeless. You mention it at every opportunity. I for one, am able to understand and agree with both of your positions. As far as disc brakes go, they will probably force the public to use and buy them. Most Fred's like disc brakes because of the same old arguments, about long alpine descents and such stuff. Plus they look cool to some people. Brakes are the last component I worry about on my road bike, as I feel like I know how to descend, and ride, and to be honest, don't use the brakes all that frequently.

edit to add............I ride carbon clinchers with cork pads. Don't even own aluminum rims.

edit again to add.......I also use latex tubes exclusively. None of the cautionary anecdotes about exploding latex, or delaminating brake tracks have happened to me, and I don't give it a second thought. I descend Mt. Hamilton twice a month.


Mt. Hamilton Rd is not steep, nor is it technical. It’s roughly 6% with mostly sweeping corners. The only thing that makes Hamilton somewhat difficult is debris.

Descending is a real thing and it doesn’t take a Fred dragging the brakes to appreciate disc brakes. If we’re using Mt. Hamilton as an example, just try beating me down Quimby on a rim-brake bike. Or down Umunum/Hicks, On Orbit/Bohlman, etc.

Of course I’m biased for two technologies I’ve personally researched and tested. My problem with Lewn777’s position is it’s based on conjecture, nebulous reasoning and sub-optimal setup.

It must be so frustrating to have to talk to people that have extensive first hand experience of tubeless tires and disk brakes but are *meh* about them on their favorite road bike. You can't trot out the 'but you haven't even tried them' party line so then you try the belittling 'you clearly didn't set them up right' angle.

I really think you need to stop drinking the kool-aid and see both sides of the argument, instead of purposely blocking out one side of the argument and deliberately ignoring the negatives of your favourite choice.

Your favourite sealant I can't buy where I am. The tire that's right for me isn't available in tubeless version here - I can buy it all online internationally but I'd rather spend the money on other things atm. Will I bother with tubeless? I already have it on 4 bikes - mountain bikes and CX bikes. I've already got hydraulic disk brakes on four bikes and yes before you ask they were all set up fine. But as time passes the pistons get dirty and one side inevitably starts to drag.

Tubeless tires and disk brakes are a fantastic choice to have. For some people and for some conditions they are excellent choices. But some adopters and marketing departments want them to essentially be the only choice, a shameful idea. These technologies don't offer enough in their current form no matter how hard you bang the drum.


Good post Lewn..... I am not a tubeless hater by any stretch, and would never try to "convince" other riders not to use them. Tobin tends to get very one sided about this matter. As I stated before. I was an early adopter to road tubeless and it has some great benefits. Heck, the wheels that we built and delivered to customers were set up tubeless where possible. We really pushed them on people. I prefer the tire selection, weight, and performance of clinchers with latex tubes, and I haven't had a puncture in a long time. I think Tobin and myself ride the same roads too. I am happy for him and anyone else who likes tubeless. I am happy when people love their stuff. It should be great for everyone to come together and say "cool disc's man! do you like them?" etc on group rides. Not try to denigrate others that prefer different components and systems.

I irony is that I actually like disk brakes and tubeless tech! The problem that Tobin has with me and I with him is that I just think he's being deliberately not objective.

I've got 3 mountain bikes in my garage, they all need new pads, rotor truing, total system bleeds, caliper and piston cleaning. They've also got crusty dried up sealant in the tires too. Work. Maybe I'm lazy or I'd rather just be riding, but eventually I'll get round to fix them.

That's why I get so irritated with all this 'have you even tried tubeless/disks yet?' 'you clearly didn't set it up optimally' nonsense. 9 times out of ten I've got more experience than the people trying to denigrate me for not agreeing with their bias. There's a list a mile long about why tubeless are better than tubes, and the same list about a mile long why tubes are better. Same for disks.

Let's get out and ride :beerchug:

Lewn777
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

Disk brakes are good because:
-They can offer more modulation and power than rim brakes.
-They are much better in wet conditions than rim brakes.
-You don't wear out expensive rims.
-They are safer on long mountain descents.


-Rim brakes are good because:

-They are on average 600g lighter than disk brakes.
-They are very simple to set up and adjust.
-It is extremely easy to change the pads, they are cheap and easily available and not very model dependent.
-You don't need to bleed them.
-You don't need to clean out the calipers and clean the pistons.
-They offer a perfectly adequate amount of power and modulation in the dry.
-They don't drag on the rotor.

In short there is no right or wrong answer about whether rim brakes are better than disk brakes. It's about what advantages are more important to you.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

wheelbuilder wrote:
Nice man. I ride Woodside quite a bit. Kings Mountain is one of my favorite climbs in the entire Bay Area, and did the Portola Valley loop this morning. Nowhere near 4500 ft obviously. Maybe I don't want to ride with you if you are shooting for 1:20 on Hamilton. that is pretty damn fast. San Jose side, right? I think my PR is 1:44 or something? I really love that long-ass climb though. Try to get it in at least twice a month.


Hamilton is a great climb marred by shitty drivers performing close passes or almost barreling into you.

Yeah I did front side in 1:26 a few months ago (with mostly coasting on the intermediate descents) after recovering from a crash...on Mt. Hamilton. Shattered my scapula while descending near the bottom 1/3rd where the road was repaired. Paint crew sprayed an excessive amount of reflective glass beads on the lane markers and never bothered to vacuum them up. If you've seen the Esteban Chaves crash at Giro dell'Emilia, that's pretty much exactly how I went down.

Still not back to my spring form, the loss of daylight hours and the mix of really hot days and really cold days lately is a constant demotivator.

I vastly prefer OLH to King's...it's that perfect ~20min length and networks and transitions a little easier into Pescadero -> West Alpine or 84 -> San Gregorio ->Tunitas. King's becomes the reward descent after Tunitas...it's my favorite, way more fun than going down 84 and getting stuck behind a car...a bit more technical too with a few spots to try and hit 5...er the posted speed limit.

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wheelbuilder
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

TobinHatesYou wrote:
wheelbuilder wrote:
Nice man. I ride Woodside quite a bit. Kings Mountain is one of my favorite climbs in the entire Bay Area, and did the Portola Valley loop this morning. Nowhere near 4500 ft obviously. Maybe I don't want to ride with you if you are shooting for 1:20 on Hamilton. that is pretty damn fast. San Jose side, right? I think my PR is 1:44 or something? I really love that long-ass climb though. Try to get it in at least twice a month.


Hamilton is a great climb marred by shitty drivers performing close passes or almost barreling into you.

Yeah I did front side in 1:26 a few months ago (with mostly coasting on the intermediate descents) after recovering from a crash...on Mt. Hamilton. Shattered my scapula while descending near the bottom 1/3rd where the road was repaired. Paint crew sprayed an excessive amount of reflective glass beads on the lane markers and never bothered to vacuum them up. If you've seen the Esteban Chaves crash at Giro dell'Emilia, that's pretty much exactly how I went down.

Still not back to my spring form, the loss of daylight hours and the mix of really hot days and really cold days lately is a constant demotivator.

I vastly prefer OLH to King's...it's that perfect ~20min length and networks and transitions a little easier into Pescadero -> West Alpine or 84 -> San Gregorio ->Tunitas. King's becomes the reward descent after Tunitas...it's my favorite, way more fun than going down 84 and getting stuck behind a car...a bit more technical too with a few spots to try and hit 5...er the posted speed limit.


Kings descent is a very good one to be sure, and you can really reach a good speed if it is uncrowded and you can utilize the oncoming lanes in the last four or five bends before Tripp. 84 is awful.
Back to the topic. We totally hijacked this thread.

MoPho
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal/SoCal

by MoPho

Lewn777 wrote:Disk brakes are good because:
-They can offer more modulation and power than rim brakes.
-They are much better in wet conditions than rim brakes.
-You don't wear out expensive rims.
-They are safer on long mountain descents.


-Rim brakes are good because:

-They are on average 600g lighter than disk brakes.
-They are very simple to set up and adjust.
-It is extremely easy to change the pads, they are cheap and easily available and not very model dependent.
-You don't need to bleed them.
-You don't need to clean out the calipers and clean the pistons.
-They offer a perfectly adequate amount of power and modulation in the dry.
-They don't drag on the rotor.

In short there is no right or wrong answer about whether rim brakes are better than disk brakes. It's about what advantages are more important to you.



True, and obviously we've all survived on rim brakes all these years too, but your rim brake pluses over disc are pretty debatable:



-They are on average 600g lighter than disk brakes.
Yes some, but my TCR is roughly 400g heavier than my friends near identical rim brake TCR, that's nothing. And sure, if your hobby is building ultralight bikes or you need to get to the top of hills first because your job is on the line, then maybe that is a serious consideration. But for the vast majority it makes no difference. In fact I've become better and faster at climbing on my disc.

-They are very simple to set up and adjust.
Disc brakes are pretty simple too. I always found the trial and error of getting the pads toe'd right so they don't howl, even with gadgets to help, a bit frustrating.

-It is extremely easy to change the pads, they are cheap and easily available and not very model dependent.
Changing pads on disc is WAY easier than rim brakes. And swapping between wheels is easier too, don't need to switch or adjust pads/brakes. Pads are about the same price as a good set and cheaper than a good set of pads for carbon wheels. They do wear out a little faster it seems, I am still monitoring this

-You don't need to bleed them.
It's been a year and I have not had to bleed mine, and I don't really see any reason why I will need to anytime soon. It's also not that big a deal to do, no worse than trying to thread cable/housing through a frame. My old TCR used to eat cable housings, it was a total PITA

-You don't need to clean out the calipers and clean the pistons.
Haven't had to do that either

-They offer a perfectly adequate amount of power and modulation in the dry.
Why settle for adequate?

-They don't drag on the rotor.
hasn't been a big issue on my disc, it happens occasionally, particularly when they are hot and the rotor expanded and it's annoying because sometimes it makes noise, but goes away in about 20 seconds. Also, the new generation of disc calipers have more spacing. But when I had Sram Red rim brakes on my old bike, I used to have to carry a brake wrench in my kit because it you brushed against the rear brake or bumped it when changing a tire it would go all wonky and rub on the rim. I've met others that had this issue too.


I will tell you the actual issues I've had with disc so far: My brakes started clicking/grinding rather loudly and I could feel it through the levers and it drove me crazy. I was using the ice tech rotors and it seemed the pads were clipping the cutouts along the parameter of the rotor. I went through several sets of pads and rotors trying to fix it to no avail, it would go away and come back, it was frustrating. But no one else seemed to have the problem but me and there are quite a few around here on shimano disc. I found one other person on the internet that had the issue. I ultimately switched to Sram Centerline and the issue went away. Now of course the Sram are not perfect, sometimes after a big braking event, the expansion (as I mentioned above) causes the rotor (which is less robust than the shimano) to touch the pads and they will squeal a little, but it goes away real quick. I've also had the rear rotor make some rubbing noise on a cold damp morning, but that has only happened once so far and I think it may have been because I didn't have the caliper aligned correctly. Again, not a big issue so far

Another issue, is the Shimano R785 rattle on bumps and chip seal if you have your hands on the bar tops, really annoying. I believe this is fixed with the new levers

And there is quite a bit of brake dust, my carbon rim brakes did that too but was easier to clean since there was less nooks and crannies

That's it so far, few minor annoyances but nothing that big a deal.

And since we're talking NorCal mtns. I have Mount Diablo in my backyard and ripping down the mountain with discs is just awesome. And even more importantly they are better for those times when you have to ride the brakes behind a slow car. Much less hand fatigue too.


.

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wheelbuilder
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

MoPho wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:Disk brakes are good because:
-They can offer more modulation and power than rim brakes.
-They are much better in wet conditions than rim brakes.
-You don't wear out expensive rims.
-They are safer on long mountain descents.


-Rim brakes are good because:

-They are on average 600g lighter than disk brakes.
-They are very simple to set up and adjust.
-It is extremely easy to change the pads, they are cheap and easily available and not very model dependent.
-You don't need to bleed them.
-You don't need to clean out the calipers and clean the pistons.
-They offer a perfectly adequate amount of power and modulation in the dry.
-They don't drag on the rotor.

In short there is no right or wrong answer about whether rim brakes are better than disk brakes. It's about what advantages are more important to you.



True, and obviously we've all survived on rim brakes all these years too, but your rim brake pluses over disc are pretty debatable:



-They are on average 600g lighter than disk brakes.
Yes some, but my TCR is roughly 400g heavier than my friends near identical rim brake TCR, that's nothing. And sure, if your hobby is building ultralight bikes or you need to get to the top of hills first because your job is on the line, then maybe that is a serious consideration. But for the vast majority it makes no difference. In fact I've become better and faster at climbing on my disc.

-They are very simple to set up and adjust.
Disc brakes are pretty simple too. I always found the trial and error of getting the pads toe'd right so they don't howl, even with gadgets to help, a bit frustrating.

-It is extremely easy to change the pads, they are cheap and easily available and not very model dependent.
Changing pads on disc is WAY easier than rim brakes. And swapping between wheels is easier too, don't need to switch or adjust pads/brakes. Pads are about the same price as a good set and cheaper than a good set of pads for carbon wheels. They do wear out a little faster it seems, I am still monitoring this

-You don't need to bleed them.
It's been a year and I have not had to bleed mine, and I don't really see any reason why I will need to anytime soon. It's also not that big a deal to do, no worse than trying to thread cable/housing through a frame. My old TCR used to eat cable housings, it was a total PITA

-You don't need to clean out the calipers and clean the pistons.
Haven't had to do that either

-They offer a perfectly adequate amount of power and modulation in the dry.
Why settle for adequate?

-They don't drag on the rotor.
hasn't been a big issue on my disc, it happens occasionally, particularly when they are hot and the rotor expanded and it's annoying because sometimes it makes noise, but goes away in about 20 seconds. Also, the new generation of disc calipers have more spacing. But when I had Sram Red rim brakes on my old bike, I used to have to carry a brake wrench in my kit because it you brushed against the rear brake or bumped it when changing a tire it would go all wonky and rub on the rim. I've met others that had this issue too.


I will tell you the actual issues I've had with disc so far: My brakes started clicking/grinding rather loudly and I could feel it through the levers and it drove me crazy. I was using the ice tech rotors and it seemed the pads were clipping the cutouts along the parameter of the rotor. I went through several sets of pads and rotors trying to fix it to no avail, it would go away and come back, it was frustrating. But no one else seemed to have the problem but me and there are quite a few around here on shimano disc. I found one other person on the internet that had the issue. I ultimately switched to Sram Centerline and the issue went away. Now of course the Sram are not perfect, sometimes after a big braking event, the expansion (as I mentioned above) causes the rotor (which is less robust than the shimano) to touch the pads and they will squeal a little, but it goes away real quick. I've also had the rear rotor make some rubbing noise on a cold damp morning, but that has only happened once so far and I think it may have been because I didn't have the caliper aligned correctly. Again, not a big issue so far

Another issue, is the Shimano R785 rattle on bumps and chip seal if you have your hands on the bar tops, really annoying. I believe this is fixed with the new levers

And there is quite a bit of brake dust, my carbon rim brakes did that too but was easier to clean since there was less nooks and crannies

That's it so far, few minor annoyances but nothing that big a deal.

And since we're talking NorCal mtns. I have Mount Diablo in my backyard and ripping down the mountain with discs is just awesome. And even more importantly they are better for those times when you have to ride the brakes behind a slow car. Much less hand fatigue too.


.

Agree with your descending behind a car scenario. Even though I run carbon with latex, and have never had a problem, I will pull over and stop or try to pass if slow moving traffic is ahead. No way I'm braking all the way down the mountain.

MoPho
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Location: NorCal/SoCal

by MoPho

wheelbuilder wrote:
Agree with your descending behind a car scenario. Even though I run carbon with latex, and have never had a problem, I will pull over and stop or try to pass if slow moving traffic is ahead. No way I'm braking all the way down the mountain.



yeah, I had carbon wheels before and never had a problem, but I would always have to be conscious of overheating the wheels ( and we've all seen evidence of what could happen). With disc it's just nicer to deal with, especially the one finger braking.
I usually try and pass too, but sometimes I have to wait a while until it's safe, a lot of times drivers speed up on the straight clear sections.


.
Last edited by MoPho on Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I guess I never really thought about why my buddies would suggest stopping and waiting for the cars to pull out a large gap on Mt. Hamilton, but slight worries about overheating rim-brake clinchers is definitely it. Heh.

hannawald
Posts: 142
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm

by hannawald

another plus for discs is through axles:)

Stickman
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:58 am

by Stickman

Unexpected car troubles have made me delay n+1, which was most likely going to be a rim brake TCR. But I've also started second guessing myself, seeing as disc frames are now almost identical in weight to rim brake frames, and disc systems are getting closer to rim brake weights, maybe I should wait another year or so before upgrading as the tech seems to be advancing so quickly and although I'm after a lightweight hill riding bike, I did appreciate the disc brakes on my current portly roadie while descending.....

jlok
Posts: 369
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

disc brake user here... can't see disc brake bike weight could match rim brake in one year development... but i wish it could.

clipsed
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:48 pm

by clipsed

I run my cx with ultegra di2 and discs, and my road bike with dura-ace di2 (direct mount) + enve 4.5's...

To be absolutely honest, whilst they both feel slightly different, i actually prefer the rim brakes. The modulation is nice on the disc (and great on the rim!), but i feel the overall stopping power really isn't much different. Rotor rub etc is annoying too.

A good set of carbon rims (zipp nsw, new boras, enve gen2) brake exceptionally...

in saying this, if you were going for a LOW end carbon rim vs disc - i would choose disc every time.

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corky
Posts: 1150
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: Expat in Washington DC

by corky

Cannot see why they can’t engineer a way of being able to adjust pad to rotor gap, to remove rub and to dial in preferred brake point feel......also why not include a spring in the system to make the lever feel the same as calipers, If it was placed at the lever end it would reduce the chance of lever rattle....

by Weenie


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