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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:30 am 
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Posts: 3341
mpulsiv wrote:
They offered flat mount and thru-axles, 2 years before the competition.

You said that before, and I pulled you up on it before.

This is a 2016 Defy Adv Pro disc. It has post mount brakes and QRs, as did every other Giant disc road bike at the time. The 2017 model was updated with E-Thru and flat mount. So trusting your timeline other major bike manufacturers are all still on QR and post mount this year, and will start offering flat mount and thru axles for the 2019 season. :wink:


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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:30 am 


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:41 am 
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Posts: 743
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand
corky wrote:
It’ll come little by little, the acceptance that they make sense on winter bikes, that bigger guys will want them for descending purposes, ..


If I was to be doing serious descending I wouldn't take my disc bike (Chorus H11), I am a larger rider (currently 107kg) and they haven't impressed me for absolute power. Nice lever feel and modulation etc but I don't like overshooting turns and coming back up the hill (so I'm not keen to go places where overshooting has consequences). I had thought I'd be going out to beat some descent times when I got this bike but I've been put off that idea. Not many road going bikes made for 180mm rotors (and Campag don't believe in those anyway), I may try some rotors with more surface area.

In the rain (3 hrs yesterday) they are better (in terms of stopping) than carbon rims, but I scared a lot of livestock with the horrific squealing that occurs every time the bike gets wet. This may be a campag thing - they bed in really quickly when dry but lose the coating as soon as I go through a puddle. Also the grinding noise that persists until I next brake if the puddle is gritty.

So far it's all the things I don't like about MTB brakes, magnified by the fact that road bikes go faster and are in a quieter environment.

Will work on becoming a less large rider (I want to do this anyway, not just for the brakes) and see if I like them more.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Posts: 80
Location: North Wales
Mtek wrote:
Disc brake development for cycling is still in its infancy compared to rim brakes. I think I’m a few years, we will see a standard system, lighter, more aero, stronger, etc. disc systems. The momentum is going to keep gaining until rim brakes have no advantage.


Rim bikes will always be simpler, no hydro, easier to fix and maintain when on long multi-day exped. So, in my opinion, there are and always will be advantages.

However ... I really like my Trek Emonda SLR8 with disks for riding in the rain and wet. Parlee Z5SLi is still lighter and more nimble when not raining/dry roads, etc. My rim brakes, in the dry, work just as well as the disks on the Trek.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Location: Reading, UK
Lewn777 wrote:
All seems a bit half-baked.


Have you actually ridden a disk bike and/or tubeless? I have a few years experience of both and I assure you your objections are groundless. Disk aren't constantly dragging unless they're really badly set up - same as rim brakes! Road tubeless works just fine, you get a lovely ride quality and a big improvement in flat protection. If high pressure worries you then ride 28mm at 60psi or whatever - you will not be 0.1kph slower.

Road disc is on the way to becoming the mainstream.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Posts: 131
Discodan wrote:
It's been several years since road disc calipers were just rebadged MTB kit, they'll all purpose built now.

As for the move to disc road bikes; anyone remember 26" mountain bikes? Except for department store trash and the occasional purists they're dead and I'll put money on similar happening on road disc, the exception being pure lightweight builds

Yes 26 inch mountain bikes. I still have some of them, even ones with big fat tires that are larger diameter than an XC 27.5. You see 27.5 wheels were about 2 seconds down an enduro run with a professional rider, so Giant did some fake Mathematics and decided it was the way the industry should go. N+1 = more money for them. Sure, they were quicker but it was so marginal a complete waste of time money and resources.

Road disk brakes really haven't come very far since they were on mountain bikes. Maybe another 5 years.


Last edited by Lewn777 on Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Posts: 131
Miller wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
All seems a bit half-baked.


Have you actually ridden a disk bike and/or tubeless? I have a few years experience of both and I assure you your objections are groundless. Disk aren't constantly dragging unless they're really badly set up - same as rim brakes! Road tubeless works just fine, you get a lovely ride quality and a big improvement in flat protection. If high pressure worries you then ride 28mm at 60psi or whatever - you will not be 0.1kph slower.

Road disc is on the way to becoming the mainstream.

I own multiple bikes in two countries. Been using tubeless and disk for brakes for years, not only road, but motorcycle and MTB. So your assertion that I simply don't know about the latest and greatest tech is incorrect. My complaints are from first hand experience, in fact you sound like an inexperienced rider or new adopter itching to convince yourself and everyone else that you will or have spent your money wisely. I know you'll then counter with 'but you didn't do it right'. Trust me, I've set up more than 30 tubeless tires, and installed, bled and trued tens of hydraulic brake systems.

Current tubeless tires and disk brakes aren't that popular with most road cyclists because they quite simply don't offer that much. Or you get something but there's a cost, financial, extra weight and complication. Not everyone wants that, and forcing the issue through like the cycle industry did with MTB 27.5 tires sucks.

Tubeless ready systems for road don't work that well because of non-standardised tires and rims. Leaky tape, leaky valves and sealant that doesn't seal until it gets to 40psi unless you get orange sealant. Fast road tires like Schwalbe Pro One puncture constantly and offer no improvement in handling over tires like the Continental GP4000S2, and offer nothing much more in rolling resistance. Tires that are tougher have sidewall issues and pick up small cuts easily. If your favourite tubed tire gets a puncture every 1000kms or more then why go to the hassle of tubeless? It's certainly not a no-brainer on road cycles like it is on MTB and motorcycle.

I would agree that eventually when the industry get things right disk brakes might become universal, and tubeless become more popular, but not quite yet.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Posts: 1134
Location: Reading, UK
Mate, I did not say you don't know about whatever - don't misquote me just because you want to make a point. And, I have been riding bikes my entire life and that's not a short time.

Make your point without being rude.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm
Posts: 517
LOL. Lewn777 again saying tubeless and disc aren’t mature enough on road bikes. I mean you just created a whole thread to shit on road tubeless, so we know about your bias.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:27 pm
Posts: 92
keith wrote:
Mtek wrote:
Disc brake development for cycling is still in its infancy compared to rim brakes. I think I’m a few years, we will see a standard system, lighter, more aero, stronger, etc. disc systems. The momentum is going to keep gaining until rim brakes have no advantage.


Rim bikes will always be simpler, no hydro, easier to fix and maintain when on long multi-day exped. So, in my opinion, there are and always will be advantages.

However ... I really like my Trek Emonda SLR8 with disks for riding in the rain and wet. Parlee Z5SLi is still lighter and more nimble when not raining/dry roads, etc. My rim brakes, in the dry, work just as well as the disks on the Trek.


I understand what your saying, however, Mech drive trains are simpler and lighter than current etap/eps/di2. Electronic shifting is going to dominate as it gets better, and I feel disc braking systems will as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Posts: 222
TobinHatesYou wrote:
LOL. Lewn777 again saying tubeless and disc aren’t mature enough on road bikes. I mean you just created a whole thread to shit on road tubeless, so we know about your bias.


To be fair Tobin, it could be said that you have the same bias as a proponent of road tubeless. You mention it at every opportunity. I for one, am able to understand and agree with both of your positions. As far as disc brakes go, they will probably force the public to use and buy them. Most Fred's like disc brakes because of the same old arguments, about long alpine descents and such stuff. Plus they look cool to some people. Brakes are the last component I worry about on my road bike, as I feel like I know how to descend, and ride, and to be honest, don't use the brakes all that frequently.

edit to add............I ride carbon clinchers with cork pads. Don't even own aluminum rims.

edit again to add.......I also use latex tubes exclusively. None of the cautionary anecdotes about exploding latex, or delaminating brake tracks have happened to me, and I don't give it a second thought. I descend Mt. Hamilton twice a month.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm
Posts: 517
wheelbuilder wrote:

To be fair Tobin, it could be said that you have the same bias as a proponent of road tubeless. You mention it at every opportunity. I for one, am able to understand and agree with both of your positions. As far as disc brakes go, they will probably force the public to use and buy them. Most Fred's like disc brakes because of the same old arguments, about long alpine descents and such stuff. Plus they look cool to some people. Brakes are the last component I worry about on my road bike, as I feel like I know how to descend, and ride, and to be honest, don't use the brakes all that frequently.

edit to add............I ride carbon clinchers with cork pads. Don't even own aluminum rims.

edit again to add.......I also use latex tubes exclusively. None of the cautionary anecdotes about exploding latex, or delaminating brake tracks have happened to me, and I don't give it a second thought. I descend Mt. Hamilton twice a month.


Mt. Hamilton Rd is not steep, nor is it technical. It’s roughly 6% with mostly sweeping corners. The only thing that makes Hamilton somewhat difficult is debris.

Descending is a real thing and it doesn’t take a Fred dragging the brakes to appreciate disc brakes. If we’re using Mt. Hamilton as an example, just try beating me down Quimby on a rim-brake bike. Or down Umunum/Hicks, On Orbit/Bohlman, etc.

Of course I’m biased for two technologies I’ve personally researched and tested. My problem with Lewn777’s position is it’s based on conjecture, nebulous reasoning and sub-optimal setup.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 131
Miller wrote:
Mate, I did not say you don't know about whatever - don't misquote me just because you want to make a point. And, I have been riding bikes my entire life and that's not a short time.

Make your point without being rude.

You started it mate.
You basically accused someone with a lifetime of cycling experience of being a clueless noob - of never having tried tubeless tires or disk brakes. Then you get your panties in a twist when it gets spun back at you.

If you don't want to get in a war don't fire the first shot. You were rude and belittling first.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:58 pm 
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Posts: 222
TobinHatesYou wrote:
wheelbuilder wrote:

To be fair Tobin, it could be said that you have the same bias as a proponent of road tubeless. You mention it at every opportunity. I for one, am able to understand and agree with both of your positions. As far as disc brakes go, they will probably force the public to use and buy them. Most Fred's like disc brakes because of the same old arguments, about long alpine descents and such stuff. Plus they look cool to some people. Brakes are the last component I worry about on my road bike, as I feel like I know how to descend, and ride, and to be honest, don't use the brakes all that frequently.

edit to add............I ride carbon clinchers with cork pads. Don't even own aluminum rims.

edit again to add.......I also use latex tubes exclusively. None of the cautionary anecdotes about exploding latex, or delaminating brake tracks have happened to me, and I don't give it a second thought. I descend Mt. Hamilton twice a month.


Mt. Hamilton Rd is not steep, nor is it technical. It’s roughly 6% with mostly sweeping corners. The only thing that makes Hamilton somewhat difficult is debris.

Descending is a real thing and it doesn’t take a Fred dragging the brakes to appreciate disc brakes. If we’re using Mt. Hamilton as an example, just try beating me down Quimby on a rim-brake bike. Or down Umunum/Hicks, On Orbit/Bohlman, etc.

Of course I’m biased for two technologies I’ve personally researched and tested. My problem with Lewn777’s position is it’s based on conjecture, nebulous reasoning and sub-optimal setup.


I think I kind of like you in a weird way. We need to ride sometime! Does descending Sierra rd, qualify as a decent test for rim brakes and carbon?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:21 am 
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Posts: 131
TobinHatesYou wrote:
wheelbuilder wrote:

To be fair Tobin, it could be said that you have the same bias as a proponent of road tubeless. You mention it at every opportunity. I for one, am able to understand and agree with both of your positions. As far as disc brakes go, they will probably force the public to use and buy them. Most Fred's like disc brakes because of the same old arguments, about long alpine descents and such stuff. Plus they look cool to some people. Brakes are the last component I worry about on my road bike, as I feel like I know how to descend, and ride, and to be honest, don't use the brakes all that frequently.

edit to add............I ride carbon clinchers with cork pads. Don't even own aluminum rims.

edit again to add.......I also use latex tubes exclusively. None of the cautionary anecdotes about exploding latex, or delaminating brake tracks have happened to me, and I don't give it a second thought. I descend Mt. Hamilton twice a month.


Mt. Hamilton Rd is not steep, nor is it technical. It’s roughly 6% with mostly sweeping corners. The only thing that makes Hamilton somewhat difficult is debris.

Descending is a real thing and it doesn’t take a Fred dragging the brakes to appreciate disc brakes. If we’re using Mt. Hamilton as an example, just try beating me down Quimby on a rim-brake bike. Or down Umunum/Hicks, On Orbit/Bohlman, etc.

Of course I’m biased for two technologies I’ve personally researched and tested. My problem with Lewn777’s position is it’s based on conjecture, nebulous reasoning and sub-optimal setup.

It must be so frustrating to have to talk to people that have extensive first hand experience of tubeless tires and disk brakes but are *meh* about them on their favorite road bike. You can't trot out the 'but you haven't even tried them' party line so then you try the belittling 'you clearly didn't set them up right' angle.

I really think you need to stop drinking the kool-aid and see both sides of the argument, instead of purposely blocking out one side of the argument and deliberately ignoring the negatives of your favourite choice.

Your favourite sealant I can't buy where I am. The tire that's right for me isn't available in tubeless version here - I can buy it all online internationally but I'd rather spend the money on other things atm. Will I bother with tubeless? I already have it on 4 bikes - mountain bikes and CX bikes. I've already got hydraulic disk brakes on four bikes and yes before you ask they were all set up fine. But as time passes the pistons get dirty and one side inevitably starts to drag.

Tubeless tires and disk brakes are a fantastic choice to have. For some people and for some conditions they are excellent choices. But some adopters and marketing departments want them to essentially be the only choice, a shameful idea. These technologies don't offer enough in their current form no matter how hard you bang the drum.


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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:21 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:45 am 
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Posts: 222
Lewn777 wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
wheelbuilder wrote:

To be fair Tobin, it could be said that you have the same bias as a proponent of road tubeless. You mention it at every opportunity. I for one, am able to understand and agree with both of your positions. As far as disc brakes go, they will probably force the public to use and buy them. Most Fred's like disc brakes because of the same old arguments, about long alpine descents and such stuff. Plus they look cool to some people. Brakes are the last component I worry about on my road bike, as I feel like I know how to descend, and ride, and to be honest, don't use the brakes all that frequently.

edit to add............I ride carbon clinchers with cork pads. Don't even own aluminum rims.

edit again to add.......I also use latex tubes exclusively. None of the cautionary anecdotes about exploding latex, or delaminating brake tracks have happened to me, and I don't give it a second thought. I descend Mt. Hamilton twice a month.


Mt. Hamilton Rd is not steep, nor is it technical. It’s roughly 6% with mostly sweeping corners. The only thing that makes Hamilton somewhat difficult is debris.

Descending is a real thing and it doesn’t take a Fred dragging the brakes to appreciate disc brakes. If we’re using Mt. Hamilton as an example, just try beating me down Quimby on a rim-brake bike. Or down Umunum/Hicks, On Orbit/Bohlman, etc.

Of course I’m biased for two technologies I’ve personally researched and tested. My problem with Lewn777’s position is it’s based on conjecture, nebulous reasoning and sub-optimal setup.

It must be so frustrating to have to talk to people that have extensive first hand experience of tubeless tires and disk brakes but are *meh* about them on their favorite road bike. You can't trot out the 'but you haven't even tried them' party line so then you try the belittling 'you clearly didn't set them up right' angle.

I really think you need to stop drinking the kool-aid and see both sides of the argument, instead of purposely blocking out one side of the argument and deliberately ignoring the negatives of your favourite choice.

Your favourite sealant I can't buy where I am. The tire that's right for me isn't available in tubeless version here - I can buy it all online internationally but I'd rather spend the money on other things atm. Will I bother with tubeless? I already have it on 4 bikes - mountain bikes and CX bikes. I've already got hydraulic disk brakes on four bikes and yes before you ask they were all set up fine. But as time passes the pistons get dirty and one side inevitably starts to drag.

Tubeless tires and disk brakes are a fantastic choice to have. For some people and for some conditions they are excellent choices. But some adopters and marketing departments want them to essentially be the only choice, a shameful idea. These technologies don't offer enough in their current form no matter how hard you bang the drum.


Good post Lewn..... I am not a tubeless hater by any stretch, and would never try to "convince" other riders not to use them. Tobin tends to get very one sided about this matter. As I stated before. I was an early adopter to road tubeless and it has some great benefits. Heck, the wheels that we built and delivered to customers were set up tubeless where possible. We really pushed them on people. I prefer the tire selection, weight, and performance of clinchers with latex tubes, and I haven't had a puncture in a long time. I think Tobin and myself ride the same roads too. I am happy for him and anyone else who likes tubeless. I am happy when people love their stuff. It should be great for everyone to come together and say "cool disc's man! do you like them?" etc on group rides. Not try to denigrate others that prefer different components and systems.


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