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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:43 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:54 pm
Posts: 142
What wheels do you have? I lose less air on my tubeless setup than I used to running tubes, no sealant around the valve.

I have always tightened the nut by hand for both road and MTB tubeless setups, maybe my fingers are stronger than yours?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am
Posts: 259
maybe you got bigger nuts :) really... a thicker nut could provide more leverage and make hand tightening easier.


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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:04 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:24 am 
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:lol: I dunno, but I've never had one come loose. A small amount of sealant comes out from the valve when seating a new tyre (this is normal) but apart from that I haven't experienced sealant leaking out around the valve. Obviously the specific wheel you are using and how the rim is taped will make a big difference which is likely the problem with the OP's setup.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:36 am
Posts: 96
I used tubeless tires when Schwalbe came out with them. Until I got a flat! I have been on Continental 4 Season or Conti 400S II with Foss Tubes and have never looked back! I just didn't think the tubeless tires gave me a better ride, nor they were the nicest things to fix. The other thing I hated with a passion, was removing the tubeless valve from the rim (Campy Shamal Mille). I have gone more than 8 months without flats on the current setup I have. Could care less about weight and tubular tire feel.

..A..


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm
Posts: 444
Lewn777 wrote:
Thanks, the IRCs are hard to source, but the Panaracers are fairly easy to get here.
I don't really care about needing a tire lever for install.


READ THIS:

Okay, going to have to recant the IRC recomendation. Both dvq and I have had the exact same bead failure on IRCs. Him last week and mine today during Phil's Fondo on a very sketchy fast descent. Front tire too. It's a parallel separation on the bead itself or right next to it.

Very dangerous tires and the puncture was unsealable by either Orange Seal or Slime STR.

Video link: https://www.instagram.com/p/BaS6Gd0hByG ... dorkeugene


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:53 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm
Posts: 781
Im using Tubeless tires on my MTb since 2008, and overall no problems.. Just Once i got side cut, not possible to seal from the sealant, so i had to put inner tube to ride back home, and the cut i tried to fix on the trail inserting 1 USD.. It holded somehow until i got home.. Probably the same cut will happened if i rode tubes as well...

Another problem i had, i did not ride that bike for few months, forgot to rotate the tires, sealant was dried, and i can say the tires was destroyed.. And also hate the hussle to check if sealant is dried up or ok.. Once i thought there is enough sealant, and got puncture on the road (winter time 0 degrees outside). I just put spare tube and continued my riding.. I had good experience with STAN'S sealant, and not so good with Joe. Orange sealant could not find here, and the shipping will make it very expensive if i order just sealant. Oh another issue with tubeless sealant.. Probably amonia corroted the rim, and the valve hole was much bigger then it should, so that rim dont work anymore for tubeless setup (Mavic X817 rim).

But overall, for MTB use i'll continue using even there is some negative things..

For road.. Based on good experience i had in MTB ing, first wanted to buy Shamal 2Way Fit version and to use Tubeless as well.. But at the end i picked regular version and could not be happier, and dont bother anymore tubeless and road...

Why? I'll answer based on my opinion then (three years ago, when i was bying the Shamal wheelset):

- 2WayFit version was a bit heavier then Regular version

- I read it that in the case of need to put inner tube, it's almost impossible on the road, even using levers (i imagined situation of beeing 100 km far from home, on -5C and how i try to put spare tube which will get me back home..)

- Not so much choice for proper Tubeless tires. If i have to use just few tires models, and dont have freedom to choose from more models.. Not interested.. For MTB there is a lot of choose.. Hope this is changing now for road, didn't check how is it in 2017

- The mess of sealant sometimes


And based on my experience in last three years since i bought Shamal's could not understund why at all would like to upgrade to tubeless:

- Im using Latex inner tubes, so the ride is very comfortable and supple..

- I was using four type of tires in this period:

1. Continental Attack/Force - On three pairs after 1500 km rear tire sidewall was damaged, but just replaced the inner tube in 2 min, and continued riding home. Then binned that tire

2. Vittoria Corsa G+ Clincher - Never ever had a puncture (more then 3000 km, and i got bored of them, so i just switched them to ride some other tires..They are still usefull)

3. Continental 4000 SII 23mm - Never ever had a puncture, more then 2500 km on them. Probably will ride them until 5000 km without a puncture.. But will see

4. Continental GrandPrix 4 Season - Never ever had a puncture. A lot of riding on them


Another thing why i dont like tubeless is that is not that easy to switch to other tires if u need for specific riding condition (as everyday setup) . With non tubeless setup i just switch to something that i think is needed in few minutes. I must admit i had problems destroying Latex inner tubes two times while i was installing them (i was in hurry). But after using talcum no problems at all, and trying to dont hurry up..So never problems after i switched my habit.

Another wheelset i have is Bora One 35 Tubular and until now i used only with Vittoria Corsa G+ tires.. Also not easy and fast to switch to specific tires if i needed, but those are not my everyday wheelset. If i have to pick between non everyday wheelset on road: Tubeless vs Tubular, everytime tubular for me..So that why i was comparing them only with Clinchers..

Also there was local guys who was riding tubeless wheelset and they were very satisfied.. But strange, in last year all of them switched to two pair of wheelset at the end: Clincher with inner tubes + Tubulars (or just Clinchers with inner tubes). I dont know anyone riding tubeless anymore here...

This is just my opinion, if someone have nice experience with tubeless, and is ok for their riding condition, then that's the right choice.. Every choice that make u ride more and reliable for specific area/condition or him self is proper choice of course.. :)


Greetings


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:27 pm
Posts: 34
Did the tire split or did the bead come of the rim?

Thanks

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
Thanks, the IRCs are hard to source, but the Panaracers are fairly easy to get here.
I don't really care about needing a tire lever for install.


READ THIS:

Okay, going to have to recant the IRC recomendation. Both dvq and I have had the exact same bead failure on IRCs. Him last week and mine today during Phil's Fondo on a very sketchy fast descent. Front tire too. It's a parallel separation on the bead itself or right next to it.

Very dangerous tires and the puncture was unsealable by either Orange Seal or Slime STR.

Video link: https://www.instagram.com/p/BaS6Gd0hByG ... dorkeugene


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Posts: 37
Location: Cambridge UK
shonanmike wrote:
Did the tire split or did the bead come of the rim?

Thanks

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
Thanks, the IRCs are hard to source, but the Panaracers are fairly easy to get here.
I don't really care about needing a tire lever for install.


READ THIS:

Okay, going to have to recant the IRC recomendation. Both dvq and I have had the exact same bead failure on IRCs. Him last week and mine today during Phil's Fondo on a very sketchy fast descent. Front tire too. It's a parallel separation on the bead itself or right next to it.

Very dangerous tires and the puncture was unsealable by either Orange Seal or Slime STR.

Video link: https://www.instagram.com/p/BaS6Gd0hByG ... dorkeugene


which rims are you using?

_________________
Giant TCR
Canyon Endurace AL
1981 Koga Miyata Full Pro


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:50 pm 
Online

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm
Posts: 444
The tire split, the bead stayed locked in place.

I’m using disc Alto CCX40s with no bead hooks. My friend is using rim brake ENVE SES 3.4s. I doubt the rims have anything to do with it. Such a shame, the tires were very supple.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Posts: 37
Location: Cambridge UK
TobinHatesYou wrote:
The tire split, the bead stayed locked in place.

I’m using disc Alto CCX40s with no bead hooks. My friend is using rim brake ENVE SES 3.4s. I doubt the rims have anything to do with it. Such a shame, the tires were very supple.


.... and did you use tyre levers when you fitted them? .... check the other thread where you quoted me:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=138385&start=15

_________________
Giant TCR
Canyon Endurace AL
1981 Koga Miyata Full Pro


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:33 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:54 pm
Posts: 142
3Pio wrote:
Im using Tubeless tires on my MTb since 2008, and overall no problems.. Just Once i got side cut, not possible to seal from the sealant, so i had to put inner tube to ride back home, and the cut i tried to fix on the trail inserting 1 USD.. It holded somehow until i got home.. Probably the same cut will happened if i rode tubes as well...

Another problem i had, i did not ride that bike for few months, forgot to rotate the tires, sealant was dried, and i can say the tires was destroyed.. And also hate the hussle to check if sealant is dried up or ok.. Once i thought there is enough sealant, and got puncture on the road (winter time 0 degrees outside). I just put spare tube and continued my riding.. I had good experience with STAN'S sealant, and not so good with Joe. Orange sealant could not find here, and the shipping will make it very expensive if i order just sealant. Oh another issue with tubeless sealant.. Probably amonia corroted the rim, and the valve hole was much bigger then it should, so that rim dont work anymore for tubeless setup (Mavic X817 rim).

But overall, for MTB use i'll continue using even there is some negative things..

For road.. Based on good experience i had in MTB ing, first wanted to buy Shamal 2Way Fit version and to use Tubeless as well.. But at the end i picked regular version and could not be happier, and dont bother anymore tubeless and road...

Why? I'll answer based on my opinion then (three years ago, when i was bying the Shamal wheelset):

- 2WayFit version was a bit heavier then Regular version

- I read it that in the case of need to put inner tube, it's almost impossible on the road, even using levers (i imagined situation of beeing 100 km far from home, on -5C and how i try to put spare tube which will get me back home..)

- Not so much choice for proper Tubeless tires. If i have to use just few tires models, and dont have freedom to choose from more models.. Not interested.. For MTB there is a lot of choose.. Hope this is changing now for road, didn't check how is it in 2017

- The mess of sealant sometimes


And based on my experience in last three years since i bought Shamal's could not understund why at all would like to upgrade to tubeless:

- Im using Latex inner tubes, so the ride is very comfortable and supple..

- I was using four type of tires in this period:

1. Continental Attack/Force - On three pairs after 1500 km rear tire sidewall was damaged, but just replaced the inner tube in 2 min, and continued riding home. Then binned that tire

2. Vittoria Corsa G+ Clincher - Never ever had a puncture (more then 3000 km, and i got bored of them, so i just switched them to ride some other tires..They are still usefull)

3. Continental 4000 SII 23mm - Never ever had a puncture, more then 2500 km on them. Probably will ride them until 5000 km without a puncture.. But will see

4. Continental GrandPrix 4 Season - Never ever had a puncture. A lot of riding on them


Another thing why i dont like tubeless is that is not that easy to switch to other tires if u need for specific riding condition (as everyday setup) . With non tubeless setup i just switch to something that i think is needed in few minutes. I must admit i had problems destroying Latex inner tubes two times while i was installing them (i was in hurry). But after using talcum no problems at all, and trying to dont hurry up..So never problems after i switched my habit.

Another wheelset i have is Bora One 35 Tubular and until now i used only with Vittoria Corsa G+ tires.. Also not easy and fast to switch to specific tires if i needed, but those are not my everyday wheelset. If i have to pick between non everyday wheelset on road: Tubeless vs Tubular, everytime tubular for me..So that why i was comparing them only with Clinchers..

Also there was local guys who was riding tubeless wheelset and they were very satisfied.. But strange, in last year all of them switched to two pair of wheelset at the end: Clincher with inner tubes + Tubulars (or just Clinchers with inner tubes). I dont know anyone riding tubeless anymore here...

This is just my opinion, if someone have nice experience with tubeless, and is ok for their riding condition, then that's the right choice.. Every choice that make u ride more and reliable for specific area/condition or him self is proper choice of course.. :)


Greetings


I'm confused, have you ridden road tubeless or not?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:36 pm
Posts: 18
dim wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
The tire split, the bead stayed locked in place.

I’m using disc Alto CCX40s with no bead hooks. My friend is using rim brake ENVE SES 3.4s. I doubt the rims have anything to do with it. Such a shame, the tires were very supple.


.... and did you use tyre levers when you fitted them? .... check the other thread where you quoted me:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=138385&start=15


I’m the other guy who had the failure. I have a set of the tubeless specific irc tire levers but managed to put the tires on by hand with soap water. The tire had about 850 miles before randomly failing overnight. Had not dismounted it for anything, nothing special prior to the ride, just had inflated to 75 psi before commuting back home, nothing special during the ride.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:52 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:03 am
Posts: 493
Location: Madison, WI USA
Lewn777 wrote:
dvq wrote:
DOUG wrote:
Of you're tightening the tubeless valve nut with a pair of pliers you're doing it wrong


Yeah seriously... pliers? :|

It's actually not my stupidity, it simply a poorly designed part. Think about it, I used needle-nosed piers to torque a nut tighter than you could by hand for safety and security, probably up to 3-5Nm, perfectly logical. The knurled nut was designed to hold a valve stem in place to stop the valve rattling on tube tires. To make the jump that this is adequate to hold a valve in place on tubeless systems is quite honestly lazy engineering.

Someone designed the tubeless valve for a mountain bike tires which run 30-60psi, then you want to run 80-90psi using the same valve at higher pressures you're going to lose plenty of air through the valve stem area, which can be seen by a build up of dried sealant around that area if you remove a tire. Plus it could be dangerous if it ever came lose.

Certainly there should be a different design other than the basic knurled nut for road tubeless, some kind of larger stronger hand tighten-able nut maybe with a mild thread-locker like Loctite 242. Some alternative designs we've already seen in this thread.


Um...nope, it really is your stupidity. (Your word, not mine. I'd have chosen "technique," but to each his own).

It's true that you can't treat tubeless road tires exactly as you treat tubeless mountain bike tires, but you already knew that. It's common to run tubeless mountain bike tires at 22 PSI. Do you complain because running your road tires at 22 PSI grinds your rim into the road? Do you complain that your road bike is sketchy in corners because the knobs on your 29x2.3" squirm when you lean the bike over? Are you irritated that your road bike fork doesn't even come close to 100mm of travel?

Insisting that you should be able to do things on your road bike exactly the same way you do them on your mountain bike is a little odd. And saying that something "doesn't work for the road" when you won't

I don't think you understand how tubeless valves work. The higher pressure in a road tire actually pushes harder on the valve, seating it more effectively in the rim than lower pressures would. If the valve has a 12-mm-diameter rubber grommet, the pressure in a 22-PSI mountain bike tire pushes the valve into place with about 4 pounds of force. 90 PSI on a road tire pushes the same valve into place with about 16 pounds of force.

The knurled nut needs to be tightened, sure, and valves sometimes leak. But you seem to think that there's some risk of your valve stem flying off into space if you don't tighten that nut to within an inch of its life. That's just not true.

You're pretty eager to throw around epithets like "lazy engineering" and "poorly designed." You seem quite certain in your knowledge that "there should be a different design" and that tightening a valve stem nut with pliers is "perfectly logical." If you're making pronouncements like that, you're surely a mechanical engineer of extraordinary skill. But if you are, why can't you figure out how to run road tubeless when others can? Why don't you understand how tubeless valves work? And if you're such a skilled engineer with clear ideas on how to improve tubeless valves, why aren't you collecting royalties on the much-improved valve design rattling around in your head?

I'm not suggesting that road tubeless valves can't be improved. But you seem to think they're both unworkable and extremely dangerous. That seems to be the case for you, but many of us are doing just fine with tubeless road tires. Why are you so certain it's "poor design" and not your technique?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 115
You make some perfectly valid points, actually about valves, you are right the pressure will hold it there.

However your tone could really do with some work, putting words into people's mouths, name calling, belittling, etc isn't the way to effectively get other people to listen to your opinions. I come on message boards to learn, yes, where we can discuss things in a positive friendly way, when we are wrong we can learn from that and evolve our ideas. There are plenty of other poorly moderated cycling message boards with pages long flame wars, if that's what you're into.

I think tubeless for the road can be perfectly workable nor am I some idiot. I have Schwalbe G-one 30mm on my CX bike that I use for commuting, they've been on there for months and work well. Maybe I over think things on my favorite bike. My contention is that as mileage increases and tires get faster, narrower and under higher pressures road tubeless seems to function less well.

As it is porting across tubeless ready for road from MTB has been half baked and has made it into somewhat of niche instead of what could be a new universal standard.
So many tire sizes and wheel sizes don't match well. So many sealants don't work well. MTB valves when used for the road can leak air and be better designed.

What was really needed was instead was UST. Factory sealed rims, standardized tires and rims and specific road sealant and valves. problem is then you have to pay Mavic and Huchinson.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:44 am 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3217
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
IRC want that tyre back dvq and tomhatesyou. It is not a known problem. most of time with any tyre brand a split at the bead is the result of damage caused when riding. a stone or something sharp damages the tyre a bulge results and the tyre then fails.

It happened to me once with tubeless and the tyre blew out in the shop after i got back but I did recall clipping a big stone and that would have killed any tyre. i had to recently bin a IRC formula light because of the same thing. I had cut the side wall and there was a bulge, this was the older non file thread version of the tyre which does have less robust sidewalls than the new version.

You dont always know about damage and really after we ride we should all inspect out tyres for damage regardless of the brand. we dont though and then the tyre get blamed for random bad luck. it may be the tyres fault but the tyre is getting blammed here without knowing the cause of the failure.

The knurled nut on road tubeless valves does have do be done quite tight. I had it loosen off before now I get them proper tight to stop that.

_________________
www.thecycleclinic.co.uk


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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:44 am 


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