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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:06 am 
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Posts: 349
Location: Seattle, WA
zappafile123 wrote:
Some of you guys are confusing the internal validity of the argument with its (largely though not exclusively) erroneous application to appraising differences between equipment. The pro's ride it argument does tell you that a piece of equipment probably works quite well. However, the argument itself is neither necessary nor sufficient to prove that point - you can all tell that your equipment works quite well cause it does what its supposed to do whilst you use it (among other pieces of evidence regarding the quality of contemporary kit).

The key point I'm making is that the 'pro's ride it' argument doesnt contribute anything meaningful to arguments about phenomenal experiences with the equipment - i.e. whats its like to use a piece of equipment. At the end of the day, when we ask what the difference between a Colnago C60 and a Bianchi Oltre XR4 is, we want to get a mental representation of what its like to ride both bikes so we can choose which one suits our needs the best. The problem is that users on the forum do use the pro's ride it argument to make claims about the phenomenal qualities of equipment all the time... which is just dumb.

Again here is an example of how people inappropriately use the argument:

Bob: "I'm interested in C60 vs. V1R"
Charly: "I havent ridden a V1R, but I didnt think the C60 felt as stiff through the BB as my Giant TCR SL, it just doesnt feel as racey"
Raskolnikov: "Well the pro's ride it, the C60 must be stiff and racey"

Clearly Raskolnikov's argument leaves a lot to be desired/is really annoying. All his argument is saying is that the C60 is of a sufficient standard to be raced. The problem is pretty much any bike from the major manufacturers is of a sufficient standard to be raced.


So basically you have a two page thread going about certain kinds of posts on an internet forum that annoy you yet you still recognize that they're still pretty valid all while writing in college-undergrad format. Okay.

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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:06 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:22 am 
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Posts: 507
Location: Madison, WI USA
rossjm11 wrote:
Marin wrote:
rossjm11 wrote:
super stiff set of bars and a stem definitely helps in a sprint.

Sorry, not true or at least inaccurate. Stiff bars and light wheels might feel better, but won't save you *any* energy in a flat race.

I did not claim they made you faster, I said they help in a sprint.

In what way could stiff bars possibly "help in a sprint" if not by making you faster? And please, no hand-waving about "confidence" or "handling." Those are unquantifiable and (much worse) unfalsifiable. Speed is the only thing that wins sprints from a bar-stem perspective. Any decent bar and stem will be stiff enough not to matter in terms of 200-meter times.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:06 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm
Posts: 709
Theoreticallly and I am not an expert at all so i'm just throwing this out there based a novel I read about Pankration - As the Hands are connected to the legs with the Fascia, when you are standing and sprinting the less energy absorbed by a flexy stem/bar gets transferred directly into more leg power.

I know that I can put a lot more force into the pedals by holding onto the bars and pulling on them versus riding with no hands.

Scientists are figuring out that the Fascia provides/transfers a lot more power than previously assumed.

Just a thought and I know I didn't explain this correctly but if the bar is absorbing x watts you are losing that in leg power. I have no idea of how to do the calcs, but Fairwheel has tests of how a bar and stem deflect under a certain load. The watts required to deflect that should be able to be calculated from that.

Is anyone good at math conversions?

http://blog.fairwheelbikes.com/reviews- ... ar-review/


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:03 am 
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Posts: 309
bilwit wrote:

So basically you have a two page thread going about certain kinds of posts on an internet forum that annoy you yet you still recognize that they're still pretty valid all while writing in college-undergrad format. Okay.


Um... do you understand the argument? Because based on what you just said it sounds like you dont.

Besides, what are forums for other than to share opinions, discuss and debate stuff? Who cares if I like to write in a verbose way, the language is more precise. It sounds like you're being rude for its own sake.

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Bianchi Oltre XR4 |BMC SLR01 16' |Cannondale SS Evo HM 12'| Focus Izalco Max | Ridley Helium SL 15' | Basso Diamante 15' | Bianchi Oltre XR2 | Scapin Dyseys S8 | Time ZXRS | Giant TCR SL 12' | Ridley Noah 08' | Look 585 | Cervelo Soloist SLC


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:38 am 
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youngs_modulus wrote:
rossjm11 wrote:
Marin wrote:
rossjm11 wrote:
super stiff set of bars and a stem definitely helps in a sprint.

Sorry, not true or at least inaccurate. Stiff bars and light wheels might feel better, but won't save you *any* energy in a flat race.

I did not claim they made you faster, I said they help in a sprint.

In what way could stiff bars possibly "help in a sprint" if not by making you faster? And please, no hand-waving about "confidence" or "handling." Those are unquantifiable and (much worse) unfalsifiable. Speed is the only thing that wins sprints from a bar-stem perspective. Any decent bar and stem will be stiff enough not to matter in terms of 200-meter times.


Okay, so Cav races with an unmarked Zipp sprint stem because it does not help in the sprint? Or are you sayin it makes him faster?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Posts: 150
Location: Melbourne, Australia
zappafile123 wrote:
kkibbler wrote:
Good thing nobody answers "what is X equipment like?" with "the pros ride it so it must be good." It responds to a different set of questions and statements.


You'd be surprised, it happens a lot on here, thats why I wrote the post. It more so happens like this

Bob: "I'm interested in C60 vs. V1R"
Charly: "I havent ridden a V1R, but I didnt think the C60 felt as stiff through the BB as my Giant TCR SL, it just doesnt feel as racey"
Raskolnikov: "Well the pro's ride it, the C60 must be stiff and racey"


Then...

Tom: "A guy I used to race with got to test ride the V1R once, for 5 minutes, and thought the vertical compliance just wasn't there".
OP: "I think I'll get the C60. I guess they wouldn't ride it if it wasn't comfortable as well as being stiff and racey, right?"

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:10 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:24 am
Posts: 309
robertbb wrote:
zappafile123 wrote:
kkibbler wrote:
Good thing nobody answers "what is X equipment like?" with "the pros ride it so it must be good." It responds to a different set of questions and statements.


You'd be surprised, it happens a lot on here, thats why I wrote the post. It more so happens like this

Bob: "I'm interested in C60 vs. V1R"
Charly: "I havent ridden a V1R, but I didnt think the C60 felt as stiff through the BB as my Giant TCR SL, it just doesnt feel as racey"
Raskolnikov: "Well the pro's ride it, the C60 must be stiff and racey"


Then...

Tom: "A guy I used to race with got to test ride the V1R once, for 5 minutes, and thought the vertical compliance just wasn't there".
OP: "I think I'll get the C60. I guess they wouldn't ride it if it wasn't comfortable as well as being stiff and racey, right?"


Lol, exactly

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Bianchi Oltre XR4 |BMC SLR01 16' |Cannondale SS Evo HM 12'| Focus Izalco Max | Ridley Helium SL 15' | Basso Diamante 15' | Bianchi Oltre XR2 | Scapin Dyseys S8 | Time ZXRS | Giant TCR SL 12' | Ridley Noah 08' | Look 585 | Cervelo Soloist SLC


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:13 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 2455
Location: Vienna Austria
morrisond wrote:
if the bar is absorbing x watts you are losing


The bar isn't absorbing anything, it's just smoothing the delivey by 1/4 of a pedal stroke max. That might actually help you deliver the power.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 2:10 am
Posts: 14
For one, pros ride best (or very near) gear for PARTICULAR job.
That kinda summarize all volumes written on this issue.

So if that one is applied correctly on a particular case, then there is issue of money.
If one have the money and thinks he will enjoy top end stuff, then who is anyone else to judge...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:47 pm
Posts: 69
This is a non-argument of course.

Everybody knows that pro-riders are living advertising and marketing billboards... Basically you should ask this question directly to a pro-rider self...

Two things do play a role here:
1) Pro-riders are privileged to test all kinds of beta stuff...
2) The human mind loves to mimic success...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm
Posts: 159
rossjm11 wrote:
waltthizzney wrote:
rossjm11 wrote:
waltthizzney wrote:
LOL you actually think these things make any difference? Are you at the absolute limit of your performance and fitness?

If the pros ride it... it to TO GOOD for you.

As someone who races Cat 1/2 it makes little to no difference once you are riding a 105 level bike.


Respectfully, I believe that just isn't true. A super stiff set of bars and a stem definitely helps in a sprint. Lightweight wheels, specifically carbon wish depth, save a ton of energy in races over 105 level wheels, because you freewheel way more. Equipment will not win you a race, but little to no difference?

To OP;
I think in certain situations you can say pros riding it proves something. If pros are racing it, banging out 1900 watt sprints and such, it isn't shit. It shows the company is actually testing the stuff very heavily and theoretically improving it as time goes on.

With that said, you're not wrong that the pros ride it isn't a great argument.


You clearly do not race at a high level..... and if you are a master racer, lusting for gear to get faster is even more stupid. Its fine to have nice stuff, but the concept that PROS are riding gear inferior to yours is insane.

There is a split second decision in every race where you have to decide if you are going to put down the power or not, that is what makes a difference, a functioning bike with an aggressive position is all you need.

Working on your flexibility will get you faster than any set of wheels ever will.


Well first, I clearly am not saying equipment makes up for fitness. Second, I am a high level racer, don't try to be rude to those who may be faster than you :lol:

Finally, I'd say the higher I personally get, the more I notice little fitness gains and little gear gains. Not just in bikes but also shoes etc.

One example of pros riding the best was when SRAM was not yet electric and only ONE worldtour team ran SRAM. All else went for Di2 or EPS


lol you are a shill to cycling marketing you will not meet anyone with any talent or fitness who shares this insane opinion as you


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:35 am
Posts: 772
Of course, the counter argument to this is that If the pros aren't riding it, then it must not be good.

We know that is not true.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:03 am
Posts: 507
Location: Madison, WI USA
rossjm11 wrote:
youngs_modulus wrote:
rossjm11 wrote:
Marin wrote:
Sorry, not true or at least inaccurate. Stiff bars and light wheels might feel better, but won't save you *any* energy in a flat race.

I did not claim they made you faster, I said they help in a sprint.

In what way could stiff bars possibly "help in a sprint" if not by making you faster? And please, no hand-waving about "confidence" or "handling." Those are unquantifiable and (much worse) unfalsifiable. Speed is the only thing that wins sprints from a bar-stem perspective. Any decent bar and stem will be stiff enough not to matter in terms of 200-meter times.


Okay, so Cav races with an unmarked Zipp sprint stem because it does not help in the sprint? Or are you sayin it makes him faster?


No, Mark Cavendish's stem doesn't make him any faster.

I can't help noticing that you're still dodging the question. Since Cavendish's stem doesn't make him faster, how do you think it "helps in a sprint?"


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:48 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:03 am
Posts: 507
Location: Madison, WI USA
topflightpro wrote:
Of course, the counter argument to this is that If the pros aren't riding it, then it must not be good.

We know that is not true.


Nice reductio ad absurdum.


(In case it's not obvious, this is a sincere post).


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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:48 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:03 am
Posts: 507
Location: Madison, WI USA
morrisond wrote:
Theoreticallly and I am not an expert at all so i'm just throwing this out there based a novel I read about Pankration - As the Hands are connected to the legs with the Fascia, when you are standing and sprinting the less energy absorbed by a flexy stem/bar gets transferred directly into more leg power.

I know that I can put a lot more force into the pedals by holding onto the bars and pulling on them versus riding with no hands.

Scientists are figuring out that the Fascia provides/transfers a lot more power than previously assumed.

Just a thought and I know I didn't explain this correctly but if the bar is absorbing x watts you are losing that in leg power. I have no idea of how to do the calcs, but Fairwheel has tests of how a bar and stem deflect under a certain load. The watts required to deflect that should be able to be calculated from that.

Is anyone good at math conversions?

http://blog.fairwheelbikes.com/reviews- ... ar-review/


First of all, I'd be careful about accepting "science" from a novel as fact.

Beyond that, you need to do more than just convert units. Watts are (force times distance) / time. I did the math (literally) for the Fairwheel crank review here: http://blog.fairwheelbikes.com/reviews- ... k-testing/

I have always wanted to write this: the rest is left as an exercise for the reader. ;)

The really hard quantity to find is the strain energy stored by the handlebar, stem, frame, etc. FEA makes this straightforward, but the tools aren't readily available to most people.

You haven't explained enough about your fascia idea for it to be called right or wrong, but keep in mind that "power transfer" isn't a thing in science/engineering. So if someone is telling you that your fascia is deeply involved in "power transfer," they're deceiving you, themselves, or both. For example, my hands are connected to my legs via my blood vessels, but my blood vessels don't "transfer power" from my hands to my legs. My blood vessels mostly transfer blood.


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