Loctite 648 BB tips?

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Alexandrumarian
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by Alexandrumarian

I will soon receive a new PF86 frame and install Campy cups. Seller also had Loctite 648, not the more quoted 603 or 609, but I think I will do as fine. No primer available. If absolutely mandatory, I will try to get some, but I am hoping to hear it works without as well.

My plan is to clean carefully the BB interior and the cups with alcohol, then try to engage them in a bit by hand. Set up the press. Spread loctite around the cup then start screwing. Should I go very fast when pressing? I've read it can start to seize in as little as 5 seconds, but perhaps this only happens when primer is present.

Thanks

Bogan
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by Bogan

If the cups need a press to fit them, you probably shouldn't need Loctite. I have an older Giant TCR where the drive side cup is still a good tight press fit i.e. have to use a press to get it to fit. I have just used a Soudal silicone paste on that side, without issue. The Non Drive side is loose and I have used 648 on that, with some primer. It does not set quickly. If you look at the data sheets from Loctite, it takes about 3 days to get to near full strength. I left mine for about 4 days. The loose cup on an older TCR frame is apparently not uncommon.
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Alexandrumarian
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by Alexandrumarian

I am getting a 2017 TCR SL. Will check the fit first with calipers but my inner voice wants Loctite in any case. I am 95k and also been plagued by chainring screws creaking on my current bike. I want it bombproof from the first try :D

Gavf
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by Gavf

Bogan wrote:If the cups need a press to fit them, you probably shouldn't need Loctite.


It must depend on the BB standard, bbright recommend Loctite "if the fit is loose;" which Cervelo owners will tell you that is the case every single time or suffer the absolute annoyance of creeks :lol:

http://www.bbright.net/BBrightTM-Press- ... ctions.pdf

Bogan
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by Bogan

Good enough!
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joejack951
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by joejack951

Bogan wrote:If the cups need a press to fit them, you probably shouldn't need Loctite. I have an older Giant TCR where the drive side cup is still a good tight press fit i.e. have to use a press to get it to fit. I have just used a Soudal silicone paste on that side, without issue. The Non Drive side is loose and I have used 648 on that, with some primer. It does not set quickly. If you look at the data sheets from Loctite, it takes about 3 days to get to near full strength. I left mine for about 4 days. The loose cup on an older TCR frame is apparently not uncommon.


How quickly Loctite 648 (or any of the gap fillers) set varies based on the gap. I can confirm that with a very small gap/light press fit, it will set nearly instantly. With a larger gap, yeah, hours and sometimes a full day is necessary in my experience.

The thing to consider with Loctite 648 is that it is considerably stronger than 609, at least by 50% if my memory serves me correctly. For something like a BB bearing that will at some point need to be replaced and can't be easily heated, 648 would not be my first choice.

Alexandrumarian
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by Alexandrumarian

joejack951 wrote:How quickly Loctite 648 (or any of the gap fillers) set varies based on the gap. I can confirm that with a very small gap/light press fit, it will set nearly instantly.


Have you had problems pressing cups all the way in because of a fast set? I would rather ride with creaks than not ride at all :) I should have tried to get some 609 from ebay but since 648 was available with the frame...

As for later removal, i am not even considering using the hammer method. It obviously works in most cases but I find it barbaric. I have very good diamond files and should be easy to make a couple slits in the cup then press it "in itself" from the sides.

sungod
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by sungod

as above 648 is 'high' strength

i've put bb30 bearings in with 'medium' strength 609, let me tell you about 'medium'...

i tried first improvising an extractor with a 14mm bolt, the thick steel washer just buckled and was drawn against the bearing, even using a hammer it was impossible to shift them - i had the frame horizontal and shell braced against a large piece of wood, i hit it so hard it was scary, had no effect on the bearings

in the end i had to use a heat gun to get the bb shell hot enough to weaken the loctite so that i could hammer them out, it was 150-200 celsius, fortunately this was all steel so this temperature was not a problem, well, except for the smoking bearing seals

aside from that, looking at the data sheet, 648 could take a week to reach full strength depending on conditions, varies with gap, materials, temperature

based on experience, if i ever need to loctite something in a frame again, i'll try 641 first as it is just 'low' strength!

Bogan
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by Bogan

648 was designed as a bearing retainer for larger gaps. In this case I would be using 609 if I was using Loctite at all.
MAMIL? Never. O.F.I.L. yeh! (Old F**ker in Lycra)

stormur
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by stormur

I'm using 648 religiously for 4-5 years now. Never had any issue with creaking on people's BB30/A , nor any other pressfit, including my own. Removal do not require any heating . Assembly strength is kind of wish from Loctite, not real. Not in bb shells. Important is that it holds, and doesn't creak.

BTW if you find some video on YT about Cannondale-Garmin ( few years old ) team mechanics; you'll find they used 648 for BB bearing assembly.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Unless you can easily insert the cups all the way by hand, use 609 plus the primer (if it is a carbon shell). It wants a fairly quick even press. It does set up very quickly but don't panic. Sometimes you may hear a loud pop as it goes in and you think you've just broken the frame. Unlikely, that's just the retaining compound setting and grabbing on the way. Keep pressing all the way in. Use PROPER drifts in the cups... none of this big flat washer against the outer edges of the cups. Leave the press and drifts in the thing for 24 hours. This helps ensure that the cups are aligned and straight, really critical for a campy ultratorque system.
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joejack951
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by joejack951

Bogan wrote:648 was designed as a bearing retainer for larger gaps. In this case I would be using 609 if I was using Loctite at all.


Both 648 and 609 are designed for pretty small gaps. Henkel shows data for 648 up to 0.25mm (.010") gaps and 609 up to 0.2mm (.008") gaps. I would hope that no 'press fit' shell for BB30 or PF30 would have anywhere near that amount of clearance, even when well worn.

648 datasheet: http://www.loctite.sg/sea/content_data/ ... mpound.pdf

609 datasheet: https://tds.us.henkel.com/NA/UT/HNAUTTD ... 609-EN.pdf
Last edited by joejack951 on Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joejack951
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by joejack951

stormur wrote:I'm using 648 religiously for 4-5 years now. Never had any issue with creaking on people's BB30/A , nor any other pressfit, including my own. Removal do not require any heating . Assembly strength is kind of wish from Loctite, not real. Not in bb shells. Important is that it holds, and doesn't creak.

BTW if you find some video on YT about Cannondale-Garmin ( few years old ) team mechanics; you'll find they used 648 for BB bearing assembly.


Bond strength is very much dependent on the surface finish, surface prep, and bond gaps. The important thing for bicycle bottom bracket bearings is to keep them from moving so any product that fills any gaps present and stays there will do the trick. No need to go high strength for something that can't easily be inserted into a hydraulic press or heated to high temps for disassembly.

stormur
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by stormur

Did you read what you quoted ? NEVER heat it for removal.

Never used press either.

But let assume that I'm wrong, Garmin mechanics are wrong... you're right :mrgreen:
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

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ms6073
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by ms6073

Alexandrumarian wrote:I will soon receive a new PF86 frame and install Campy cups.

While in the past I have advocated for Loctite 609 for PF30/PF86 applications, that was based on bottom bracket shells with alloy inserts. Based on my experience with my 2016 Scott Solace Disc, which has an all carbon bottom bracket shell, I am going to suggest you seriously consider not using any form of Loctite unless absolutely necessary! This past weekend, in order to replace hydraulic brake hose required for DA ST-9170 shifters install, I had to remove a KCNC alloy PF86 assembly which was previously installed used Loctite 609. to To remove the bottom bracket assembly, I first tried my Enduro BRT-003 tool which typically makes easy work of the removal task. Due to the retaining compound, the tool simply pulled the bearings, and so was completely ineffective at removing the cups, so I had to resort to using a Park BBT-90.3 tool and a large hammer to force one side out then the other!
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