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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:06 am 
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TobinHatesYou wrote:
How is this even an ongoing discussion? As mentioned already, the most effective solution is going with wider, more supple tires, inflated to lower pressures if possible.

Actually the most effective solution would probably be revisiting the fit. IIRC the OP has sized down and removed several spacers all in one hit. Extra pressure on the hands? Yeah, no kidding.


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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:06 am 


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:31 am 
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wingguy wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
How is this even an ongoing discussion? As mentioned already, the most effective solution is going with wider, more supple tires, inflated to lower pressures if possible.

Actually the most effective solution would probably be revisiting the fit. IIRC the OP has sized down and removed several spacers all in one hit. Extra pressure on the hands? Yeah, no kidding.


Two issues I guess. I was more referring to eliminating the road buzz mentioned in the initial post, to which no component swap will be as effective as going tubeless and running lower pressures. The OP talks about going down to 90psi on 25mm tires...I have run 60psi on 25mm tubeless and can pretty much say it eliminates practically all road buzz.

At almost 200 pounds, he should probably be riding 28mm tubeless tires at around 75psi.


Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:33 am 
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OK, as usual, a bike forum used for support tends to turn on the rider LOL :D I have had a fit and the fit is fine. I never said I am having problems with the fit. I said can a bike be overly stiff - asking other F8 owners or fellow riders - given the love hate relationship Pinarello have with riders.

I like stiff bikes. My legacy is S-works tarmac, evo, dogma, s3 etc. I like fast flat back bikes as I have tried endurance geo and my boby geo works better on a race bike based on retul data. I am 45, I have ridden 200 miles with 11,000 feet of up this week and I like riding hard, fast and full gas when the road currys favour. What goes up must come down and the F8 is an insanely good descending bike. I run 23mm based on the fact the 23mm is 25mm in my wheelset up and it works. But, as per my original post, the Dogma is a stiff frame. When I feel 25 or 28mm tyres are required in my life I will choose a bike to suit. But as someone in a bike shop is likely saying as we speak "i aint no professional".

There is another small issue which rises up here and that is when I was 17, I had major surgery on my left hand after cutting through the top of my left hand when I was at work, I lost the use of two fingers and my thumb for 6 months and had a five hour operation on the hand. I suspect that this is now part of the issue - nerve damage loss of feeling coming back later in life. But seriously, thanks for all the input and advice and what not. Keep on truckin' !

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:55 pm 
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To the OP, the best possible thing you can do is some core work and posture muscle strengthening. It will reduce the pressure your hands have on the bar and will take you closer to the right direction.

To the question, I once had a Ritte Vlaanderen and that bike was too stiff. It was plaing uncomfortable for long efforts.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:19 pm 
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WinterRider wrote:
morganb wrote:
I have no idea how you are reading that from what I just said. I've never broken a spoke on anything. I am talking about the mechanism of failure of spokes coming from the flex of undertensioned spokes. I am not suggesting that you have to run every wheel at the listed max tension as this is a listed value that obviously takes into account manufacturing variations, a safety factor, and such. What I am saying is that from a spoke breakage/fatigue perspective, the ideal tension is as high as possible without stressing the rim/nipple interface.


Your writing as if this a fact you've proven out yourself .. per testing. Your use of terms very vague.. someone who has never built wheels or experimented w their performance.

In short.. your posting nothing of value.

He is posting science. He doesnt need to experience it himself, as he doesn't need to jump from a skyscraper to know he'll die if he does.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:21 pm 
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rossjm11 wrote:
To the OP, the best possible thing you can do is some core work and posture muscle strengthening. It will reduce the pressure your hands have on the bar and will take you closer to the right direction.

To the question, I once had a Ritte Vlaanderen and that bike was too stiff. It was plaing uncomfortable for long efforts.


Please read above post LOL ^ :smartass: :mrgreen: The buzz is my left hand - the penny dropped this week. However, after looking back at previous builds, I have decided to run a longer reach bar with a little more lateral flex, but drop the stem back by 10mm and raise it by 5mm. As such, my hand will not be on the knuckles of the d - rather sat flat handed on the hoods as I like to ride time trial position if that makes sense. Regards.

Like the look of Ritte bikes for sure.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:29 pm 
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diegogarcia wrote:
OK, as usual, a bike forum used for support tends to turn on the rider LOL :D

Does it? What are you referring to? I haven't seen it.

Quote:
I have had a fit and the fit is fine. I never said I am having problems with the fit.

What do you base that on? The fit you've described here is (IIRC) much lower on the front than the fit you recently provided pictures of, and now you're having hand issues. You say the fit is fine, Occam's Razor says otherwise. How do you know the fit is fine?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:37 pm 
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When the bike fails to absorb any vibrations and transmits them all to the rider resulting in a tired rider at the end of a century the bike is too stiff. When your groin hurts at the end of that century the bike is too stiff. Years ago I had an aluminum Trek 1200 and that was exactly how I felt. Yes a bike can be too stiff.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Kind of depends how you expect to feel after 100 miles. Tired and potentially a bit sore would be my expectation.

Don't turn on me! I have low expectations.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
The Kinlin XR200 can handle 1200N DS rear done it many times. none have failed. For a front wheel tension should be 900-1000N. any more is pointless for rim brake wheels unnless tubeless tyres are being used then tension to 1000-1100N. less may cause trueness issue as nipples may loosen off.

if you did triplet with the XR200 and used 1000N DS 950N NDS you will have a wheel that is using a triplet hub that is not optimised for that lacing and the wheel would have been stiffer using a conventional hub. Also having done a couple of 24 spoke rear XR200 the one thing I would say they cant be durable. they are not close to being stiff enough for that.

Anyway this thread is not about your wheel building ideas winter rider.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:47 pm 
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I had a buddy who had a custom aluminum frame that was too stiff. He actually spec'd it to be as stiff as possible, and when not built up, it almost looked like a BMX frame.

After riding it, he determined it was just too stiff and not comfortable to ride, so he hung it up and went back to his older aluminum frame.

Of course, as I mentioned, he chose tubes and a geometry to create a ridiculously stiff crit bike, and it just turned out to be too much.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:57 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
The Kinlin XR200 can handle 1200N DS rear done it many times. none have failed. For a front wheel tension should be 900-1000N. any more is pointless for rim brake wheels unnless tubeless tyres are being used then tension to 1000-1100N. less may cause trueness issue as nipples may loosen off.

if you did triplet with the XR200 and used 1000N DS 950N NDS you will have a wheel that is using a triplet hub that is not optimised for that lacing and the wheel would have been stiffer using a conventional hub. Also having done a couple of 24 spoke rear XR200 the one thing I would say they cant be durable. they are not close to being stiff enough for that.

Anyway this thread is not about your wheel building ideas winter rider.


Guess each their own... apologies if went off topic.

But.. I'll run my wheels to suit me. Your not referencing building triplet rear.. we'll leave it at that. Triplet IS optimized when tensions side to side are near equal.. in my view. Having to crank DS to 120 using triplet defeats purpose.

Wheels work many ways .. looser, tighter, different lacings ... optimized is personal choice. 200's run fine for my intended purpose. I really don't care about marketing yadda yadda ... rolling one's own is nice that way .. 'let's try this'. Works for me.. and that is my story and I'm stick'n to it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:17 pm 
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wingguy wrote:
diegogarcia wrote:
OK, as usual, a bike forum used for support tends to turn on the rider LOL :D

Does it? What are you referring to? I haven't seen it.

Quote:
I have had a fit and the fit is fine. I never said I am having problems with the fit.

What do you base that on? The fit you've described here is (IIRC) much lower on the front than the fit you recently provided pictures of, and now you're having hand issues. You say the fit is fine, Occam's Razor says otherwise. How do you know the fit is fine?


Work on your core, the fit is out etc etc. But as before, last 7 days riding data is 230.4 miles, 15 hours 10 mins, 12,644 feet. If the fit were that out, I would never put out those numbers.

The week I bought the bike frame and had it built, I had a fit with my local fitter of whom I have used before and I am dialled in based on stack, reach, HT tube height and so son. But I hear you - I have however the evidence and data regarding angles. Anyway no bother, it is a stiff bike, of that we can conclude. Clearly there are a few out there....the issue is more to do with my legacy hand injury.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:42 pm 
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That's my usual 4 rides a week, more or less. I can tough it out with an incorrect fit, or I can feel great. It's up to you. I recently tried a couple of small tweaks to my fit which really hurt my hands and perineum. I rotated my grips/hoods up about 3 degrees and moved my saddle back 2mm. While I did the same mileage that week, it felt awful doing it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:50 pm 
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TobinHatesYou wrote:
That's my usual 4 rides a week, more or less. I can tough it out with an incorrect fit, or I can feel great. It's up to you. I recently tried a couple of small tweaks to my fit which really hurt my hands and perineum. I rotated my grips/hoods up about 3 degrees and moved my saddle back 2mm. While I did the same mileage that week, it felt awful doing it.


That can apply to all here. As I keep saying the Dogma is stiff, this was my ask. My fit is not an issue. I am happy as I have discovered the root cause on this dialogue. I looked back over previous bike fit data and I moved to short reach bars with a ML TCR which I do not need on a 38cm ish reach bike where as the TCR was effectively a 40cm reach bike. Nice one one and all. Peace to all.


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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:50 pm 


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