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 Post subject: Suppple Road Tubeless?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:21 pm
Posts: 75
Hello,

So, as opposite to another thread I have, I wonder if I have done my research well and whether I am missing something. I got the following as the current tubeless line up in 25c x 700:

Schwalbe Pro One
Bonty R3
Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR
Fusion Galactik 5

I find that only the Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR is the only tire here with a 320tpi case, confirming the reports that it is a very supple tire. The rest are all around the 120tpi mark. My Pro Ones are not far, but not as nice, as my Pro4 with latex.

I am not talking about rolling resistance here because tubeless is really good for that, but I am not enjoying the ride so much and I suspect its the TPI that is holding these back.

I'd be happy to buy the Corsa TLR but the reports of its very very fragile nature tell me that this is not a tire for me. I don't race, but I do like to have reliability and a smooth tire. The Pro4 Endurance and latex have been rather nice, but I would enjoy something more supple even if not with that much puncture protection.

So, possibilities are using Vredestein Latex with the following:

Vredestein Superiore (I ask on another thread if there are anyone with experience with those)
Corsa G+ Open
R4 320

Also, thinking of getting some puncture protection for these with Orange Seal for at least the minor stuff.

What do we think?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Posts: 362
Isn't the Vittoria Corsa Speed only available as 23mm? That's really competition tyre with very little thread to wear.


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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:51 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Posts: 1371
Don't confuse how a tire feels in your hand with how it performs.
The Schwable Pro One feels robust and somewhat stiff to the hand- but ride quality it nice, and the robust casing gives it good protection against punctures.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:05 pm 
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Posts: 75
boots2000 wrote:
Don't confuse how a tire feels in your hand with how it performs.
The Schwable Pro One feels robust and somewhat stiff to the hand- but ride quality it nice, and the robust casing gives it good protection against punctures.


I don't know why you would get the impression that I speak about them from touch...

I have the Pro Ones, the Pro4 with latex and another set with G-One (also tubeless) mounted on different bikes. I know how they feel when I ride them.

I haven't had much experience with the Pro One just yet but I already did get a puncture early on (there is another thread I started warning on the sealant I used that didn't work for road tubeless) I have not discounted the Pro Ones on durability, but I am not liking the way they feel from 75psi till 100psi. Again, compared to the Pro4 with latex, even at 100psi, the Pro4 mutes the road a lot more than the Pro One.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Posts: 75
TurboKoo wrote:
Isn't the Vittoria Corsa Speed only available as 23mm? That's really competition tyre with very little thread to wear.


This is correct. I was just listing it as a way to let everyone know I have been looking into this well enough.

While I know that the Corsa Speed is only 23c and has little tread to wear, I would jump on them just because of the feel. However, their frailty is a liability so I will not.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:24 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3263
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
IRC roadlites have a 127 tpi casing but the 25mm tyre on wide rim take out the road buzz. Did a 12hr TT on them with a half mended collar bone and fractured thumb without too much pain. They feel similar comfort wise to the maxxis pardones.

The Vittoria corsa TLR is a smooth circuit TT tyre. it has bery low crr but bugger all service life. I dont think it would survive a 24hr TT for example.
but even
I did this year 24hr TT on IRC formula Pro light 25mm and comfort was fine with 80 psi front and 90 pis rear. the cheshire roads were rough as normal but I did not get any hand pain or numbness anywhere except in my brain. most tubeless tyres are pretty comfy. getting rid of the horrible inner tube = a plush ride.

All the tubeless tyres I have tried feel like decent tubulars for comfort (like vittoria pave's 27mm) but if you want a tyre to feel like a Dugast Strada cotton 27mm then get those.

_________________
www.thecycleclinic.co.uk


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:21 pm
Posts: 75
Hi there,

Thanks for your input.

I will have a look at the Maxxis tires. I just saw their Padrone TR, 170tpi, tubeless tire. Will try to see if I can find some info on that one.

I don't argue that tubeless is not comfortable. I will stress again that I do not find them "uncomfortable" but I am not keen on the way they feel.

I am attaching this image below in an effort to convey visually how I feel these tires ride. On the tubeless, this would be an overall impression because the wider the tire the lesser the feel of "peaks" (G-One 40c as my current example or the Pro One at about 70psi)

I do disagree, however, that tubeless automatically means a plush ride. I agree that if you use the same tire tubeless as you would tubed, the tubeless will be a lot smoother. If that is what you meant, I agree. If what you mean is that in general tubeless is a plush ride, I disagree because of my non-race set up of Pro4 endurance and latex being smoother than the pro one at like for like pressures. My belief is that this has to do with TPI more than it has to do on whether it uses a latex tube or no tube.

Further info: The rim where the Pro One 25c tires are mounted on is 19c internal and at 90psi they are 28.5mm wide. The Pro4s are mounted on 17c wheels, becoming 27mm at 90psi.


Attachments:
road feel.jpg
road feel.jpg [ 86.92 KiB | Viewed 1076 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:51 am 
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Location: tucson
I haven't seen them in quite some time but the padrone used to set up extremely narrow. The 23mm tire measured probably 20mm on the rim.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:02 am 
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Location: Almere - Nederland
520 Dan wrote:
I haven't seen them in quite some time but the padrone used to set up extremely narrow. The 23mm tire measured probably 20mm on the rim.
It's depends what for intern wide rim they are mounted on. I presume a 13C rim.!

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Once comes a time that you'll have a tailwind :D
Pinarello F10 - Ultegra 6800 - Carbonspeed C38 - Tubeless


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:02 pm 
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possibleweenie wrote:
Further info: The rim where the Pro One 25c tires are mounted on is 19c internal and at 90psi they are 28.5mm wide. The Pro4s are mounted on 17c wheels, becoming 27mm at 90psi.


May I ask why you run the tubeless at 90 psi .. if comfort is you goal? Your pics represent your subjective analysis of the ride .. not from any real world data?

FWIW ... S1 tubeless 25's are 24.9 on 13-14mm internal rims.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:53 pm 
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WinterRider wrote:
possibleweenie wrote:
Further info: The rim where the Pro One 25c tires are mounted on is 19c internal and at 90psi they are 28.5mm wide. The Pro4s are mounted on 17c wheels, becoming 27mm at 90psi.


May I ask why you run the tubeless at 90 psi .. if comfort is you goal? Your pics represent your subjective analysis of the ride .. not from any real world data?

FWIW ... S1 tubeless 25's are 24.9 on 13-14mm internal rims.


Hi there,

I don't run tubeless at 90psi. I don't know why you got that impression. Above I write:

"....but I am not liking the way they feel from 75psi till 100psi. Again, compared to the Pro4 with latex, even at 100psi, the Pro4 mutes the road a lot more than the Pro One."

I tried the Pro Ones at 65psi last night and they improve a lot, but now the tyre feels as if it's moving under the rim.

What sort of data would be real world compared to me riding on my tires?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:17 pm 
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possibleweenie wrote:
WinterRider wrote:
possibleweenie wrote:
Further info: The rim where the Pro One 25c tires are mounted on is 19c internal and at 90psi they are 28.5mm wide. The Pro4s are mounted on 17c wheels, becoming 27mm at 90psi.


May I ask why you run the tubeless at 90 psi .. if comfort is you goal? Your pics represent your subjective analysis of the ride .. not from any real world data?

FWIW ... S1 tubeless 25's are 24.9 on 13-14mm internal rims.





What sort of data would be real world compared to me riding on my tires?


The idea I have been considering is some kind of electronic device mounted on the seatpost or handlebar to record data. How too... ? Subjective data is just that... no hard fact.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Posts: 75
WinterRider wrote:
possibleweenie wrote:
WinterRider wrote:
possibleweenie wrote:
Further info: The rim where the Pro One 25c tires are mounted on is 19c internal and at 90psi they are 28.5mm wide. The Pro4s are mounted on 17c wheels, becoming 27mm at 90psi.


May I ask why you run the tubeless at 90 psi .. if comfort is you goal? Your pics represent your subjective analysis of the ride .. not from any real world data?

FWIW ... S1 tubeless 25's are 24.9 on 13-14mm internal rims.





What sort of data would be real world compared to me riding on my tires?


The idea I have been considering is some kind of electronic device mounted on the seatpost or handlebar to record data. How too... ? Subjective data is just that... no hard fact.


I see. It is not in my interest to spend that sort of time or effort into finding things that I like. While I do appreciate and am very grateful for those who do spend the time and effort into providing objective evidence for their respective communities, I find myself unable and unwilling to do that. Why? Because I like to enjoy some things in life in the most personal and subjective way as possible. I enjoy cycling in the same way I do music. I go up to certain extent, but never dig into it so deeply so as to find marginal gains or chase the very last gram at any cost. On my hobbies, I do as much as I please. It is only in my professional life that I focus on gaining that marginal advantage technically. There, I can, invariably, spend a lot of time being as objective as I need to be.

Don't take my "graphs" too seriously. As I said, the way I feel the tyres is the way I feel them and that was the best way I found to communicate what I perceive. No attempt into giving anyone the impression that those are the ultimate proof that Durano Pluses are steel-like.

Obviously Miller finds the Pro Ones comfortable at around 75psi. I find them comfortable too but I am just not enjoying that sort of feedback they give. And if you speak about comfort being the objective, I can tell you that comfort can only be very subjective. Is saddle A more comfortable than saddle B? Only your bottom can tell!! How about a lower staddle height or a flat bar vs a drop bar? Maybe the Eames chair is not comfortable at all because the Ikea's Oakloem is the best thing you can sit your body on. As you noted, this is just me talking about me and I'd love to hear from all of you to get your impressions and experiences.

Once I got the compass more or less aiming in one direction, I go ahead and take the wallet out.

Sometimes there are no definite answers (like in this case and the other thread I have asking about the Vredesteins) so the best thing I got is my current experience with 5 different tyres, the words of the people around here, and the willingness to try a couple of sets and see how I get along.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:09 pm 
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^

That works .. makes sense.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:22 am 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3263
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
try different tyres. there is more to the way a tyre feels that TPI. remember casing TPI does not include the puncture protection belt which is a lower TPI and does affect how the tyre behaves.

Different tyre compounds also change how the tyre feels in short you have to try a variety of tyres and see for yourself. I have settled on what I like you need to go through the same process or stick to the pro4 with latex tubes.

_________________
www.thecycleclinic.co.uk


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Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:22 am 


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