First Power meter suggestions

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
wwnick
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm

by wwnick

cdncyclist wrote:
wwnick wrote:dude dont get a stages until they bring out double sided model
single sided is a joke
or a powertap, you will hate being limited to wheel that it is built on (this is from experience)
and rather than asking "what my first" you should be looking at what is my "last", ie not having to get something better later on.
PM is worth more than anything, frame/wheel upgrade etc. so spend the cash, a P2Max is less than 1/2 price of aero ( :lol: ) frame

p.s. pioneer look good also and are cheap


I recognize that providing opinion is the purpose of this forum, but declarative statements without evidence or even exposition doesn't add all that much to the discussion

"single sided is a joke" ... it's like that and that's the way it is. :D
i think only a stages shill would disagree when you can get double side measurement for a few c notes more.
As I said before a PM is the single most important equipment you can get if you are training, so dont go into it half hearted/half legged :D
also get yourself golden cheetah and the power training book and make sure you get a ROI on your investment.

jlok
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

If you never used true dual-sided PM you could never tell the true LR balance under different situations, e.g. fresh vs fatiqued, sprint vs climb, etc.

I've seen mine flutuate between 50-50 to 53-47 with Vector 2. New saddle position also changed that balance somewhat.

There's no right or wrong with balance, it's just that. The point being you need to know your balance or the single-sided PM cannot reflect your true power. That could be 6% in my case and vary with different real-world bike settings and ride situations.

Not a problem with dual-sided (PowerTap P1 or Vector) or total power (like SRM or P2M).

Not judging the value of single-sided PM, but there's difference that we should bear in mind.

by Weenie


moonoi
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:04 pm

by moonoi

Given that even science doesn't know whether knowing left/right Power is actually useful or not, and that the vast majority (P2M, SRM, Quarq etc) only estimate L/R and are therefore susceptible to the same inaccuracies as left sided only, its nonsense to state something like Stages is a joke based on this alone.

Even my own testing with left sided only PM against a TACX Neo shows total power within 5%, often closer.

Basically go with what you can afford and meets your own requirements.

The only time a dual sided power meter is useful is if you're coming back from injury to one leg.

kulivontot
Posts: 1170
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 7:28 pm

by kulivontot

I switched from stages to dual 4iiii and power went up 100W and i win every race i enter.
But seriously i can't tell a difference other than I'm pretty sure the right side reads lower than the left and seeing 51/49% irks me.

bremerradkurier
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:18 pm

by bremerradkurier

The killer app for me so far (Stages left side) has been total work tracking and only "enjoying" at most 50% of the kJ in post ride feasting-I've lost 13kg since the beginning of the year while having my power average go up at the same time.

boots2000
Posts: 1423
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:28 pm

by boots2000

The SRM on my cross bike died last week.
I had to put a Stages on to have something in the interim.

The Stages is really terrible- at least for someone who knows and follows their power numbers.

Because it is one sided the actual power number constantly varies by 50 or so watts.

But I could see how the Stages would work for someone who doesn't follow actual power so much and just wants total ride data. It is not crazy far off in that regard.

cdncyclist
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:10 am

by cdncyclist

I'm a little worried that the single vs. double sided has derailed this thread (sorry OP). To be fair, I have tried out dual sided set up and found that my L/R power balance is pretty equal - so I don't see the value in paying more for more information that won't change performance (for me); maybe my opinion would be different if I were 40/60.

I have no specific love for stages (in fact I am building up a cross bike that uses the Easton PM). I still contend for a first time PM buyer, it probably doesn't really matter what you buy (assuming it works - just a note that the 50W power differences the post above noted is NOT my experience and suggests they have a faulty unit). There is STRONG data that training with power leads to significant gains, but no data that I am aware of that the type of PM (or assorted bells and whistles) has any impact.

So get a PM, look at the range of opinions, consider what works best for you and go for it!

Delorre
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 12:09 pm

by Delorre

boots2000 wrote:The SRM on my cross bike died last week.
I had to put a Stages on to have something in the interim.

The Stages is really terrible- at least for someone who knows and follows their power numbers.

Because it is one sided the actual power number constantly varies by 50 or so watts.

But I could see how the Stages would work for someone who doesn't follow actual power so much and just wants total ride data. It is not crazy far off in that regard.


Are you saying that with SRM, you have far less power fluctuations? Even with 3s avg power? Stages do show some real fluctuations while riding,mostly due to slope change, wind change, tempo change,...but on a very regular uphill, I can stay at 270w f.ex, + or - 5w, for a long time without fluctuating more than that, so those variations are real? I'm not saying it has nothing to do with it, but I don't understand what huge variations, and way more than SRM, has to do with left-side only. Can you give us some more insight in this?

cdncyclist
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:10 am

by cdncyclist

jlok wrote:If you never used true dual-sided PM you could never tell the true LR balance under different situations, e.g. fresh vs fatiqued, sprint vs climb, etc.

I've seen mine flutuate between 50-50 to 53-47 with Vector 2. New saddle position also changed that balance somewhat.

There's no right or wrong with balance, it's just that. The point being you need to know your balance or the single-sided PM cannot reflect your true power. That could be 6% in my case and vary with different real-world bike settings and ride situations.

Not a problem with dual-sided (PowerTap P1 or Vector) or total power (like SRM or P2M).

Not judging the value of single-sided PM, but there's difference that we should bear in mind.


Just to be the devils advocate - is 50/50 the 'best' for everyone? If someone is 47/53 and they adjust to 50/50 through feedback will that make them stronger?

I know I am being repetitive (sorry!) but I would love to see data on this!

cdncyclist
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:10 am

by cdncyclist

(sorry double post)

cdncyclist
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:10 am

by cdncyclist

Delorre wrote:
boots2000 wrote:The SRM on my cross bike died last week.
I had to put a Stages on to have something in the interim.

The Stages is really terrible- at least for someone who knows and follows their power numbers.

Because it is one sided the actual power number constantly varies by 50 or so watts.

But I could see how the Stages would work for someone who doesn't follow actual power so much and just wants total ride data. It is not crazy far off in that regard.


Are you saying that with SRM, you have far less power fluctuations? Even with 3s avg power? Stages do show some real fluctuations while riding,mostly due to slope change, wind change, tempo change,...but on a very regular uphill, I can stay at 270w f.ex, + or - 5w, for a long time without fluctuating more than that, so those variations are real? I'm not saying it has nothing to do with it, but I don't understand what huge variations, and way more than SRM, has to do with left-side only. Can you give us some more insight in this?


Same here - accounting for changes in 'actual' power output I can hit a steady state with 3s average pretty easily (or even hit targets with averaging off which I use for really short intervals) with a single sided PM. From the very brief description it sounds like there is an error / fault somewhere.

Delorre
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 12:09 pm

by Delorre

cdncyclist wrote:I'm a little worried that the single vs. double sided has derailed this thread (sorry OP).


Dual side has a real cost (in € and in weight), so, why not discus the pro and contra. Espially for beginners (and others, including me, 2 years Stage user), it can be very valuable info, and can help descide if dual side is worth it or not.

merser
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:05 pm

by merser

The thing that's surprised me the most about the topic is the vast difference in price of power meters! I was originally impressed with the tech in the quarq and for value for money it's still the forerunner. Even though is a pseudo L/R meter i think it will be good enough for my needs. Sadly I'm not a pro cyclist!

I really appreciate the input.

Jamie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

moonoi
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:04 pm

by moonoi

cdncyclist wrote:
jlok wrote:If you never used true dual-sided PM you could never tell the true LR balance under different situations, e.g. fresh vs fatiqued, sprint vs climb, etc.

I've seen mine flutuate between 50-50 to 53-47 with Vector 2. New saddle position also changed that balance somewhat.

There's no right or wrong with balance, it's just that. The point being you need to know your balance or the single-sided PM cannot reflect your true power. That could be 6% in my case and vary with different real-world bike settings and ride situations.

Not a problem with dual-sided (PowerTap P1 or Vector) or total power (like SRM or P2M).

Not judging the value of single-sided PM, but there's difference that we should bear in mind.


Just to be the devils advocate - is 50/50 the 'best' for everyone? If someone is 47/53 and they adjust to 50/50 through feedback will that make them stronger?

I know I am being repetitive (sorry!) but I would love to see data on this!


The data doesn't support that, in fact in some cases trying to correct an imbalance in this way leads to a reduction in power output. This is why I said earlier that even science (scientific research) hasn't found L/R balance to be useful except in the case when coming back from a single leg injury.

There's quite a bit of info around this on the DC Rainmaker blog and Slowtwitch forums amongst others if you care to look, but basically it's data that seems like it might be useful, but as yet hasn't proven to be for the majority of people.

by Weenie


jlok
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

cdncyclist wrote:
jlok wrote:If you never used true dual-sided PM you could never tell the true LR balance under different situations, e.g. fresh vs fatiqued, sprint vs climb, etc.

I've seen mine flutuate between 50-50 to 53-47 with Vector 2. New saddle position also changed that balance somewhat.

There's no right or wrong with balance, it's just that. The point being you need to know your balance or the single-sided PM cannot reflect your true power. That could be 6% in my case and vary with different real-world bike settings and ride situations.

Not a problem with dual-sided (PowerTap P1 or Vector) or total power (like SRM or P2M).

Not judging the value of single-sided PM, but there's difference that we should bear in mind.


Just to be the devils advocate - is 50/50 the 'best' for everyone? If someone is 47/53 and they adjust to 50/50 through feedback will that make them stronger?

I know I am being repetitive (sorry!) but I would love to see data on this!

I don't think there's any real study on the effect of imbalanced outputs.

what I tried to point out was how much differences (and the inconsistence of the difference) of single-sided PM could be between other PM.

if you are going to buy Quarq (spiderarm based) or Rotor 2inpower ( dual-side) types of PM then you don't need to worry about the differences.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post