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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
dmcgoy wrote:
Ticlimax wrote:
Well, I had enjoyed service from CarbonBikeKits and now it seems like their service will really be put to the test.
My wheelset has arrived and it is a whopping 1600g as opposed to the promised 1475g. Without rim tape, axles or anything.
Mailed them to come up with a solution. Not pleased. At all.

It was delivered with quick releases and carbon pads as well. And without through axles.

(On a positive note, XDB delivered without issue and I did not have to pay any customs charges)


Eeek. How many spokes is the wheelset? Napkin match gives ~1500 grams for a 24/24 spoke wheelset (475+475 (rims) +320 (hubset)+(4.5*48) (spokes)+15 (nipples)). However a 32/32 spoke wheelset would come out to about 1580 grams.


24/24. So I don't know where the extra weight comes from (the rims are actually 460g, if I recall correctly). I've mailed CarbonBikeKits (haven't heard back) as well as Workswell (to state again that I want pictures and actual weight before shipping, haven't heard back either). Chinese imports are honestly quite the hassle. That's what you have to deal with when you want carbon wheels/hydraulic disc/di2 on my budget I suppose.
DutchMountains wrote:
Ticlimax wrote:
Ceramic is going to be out of my budget. The Wheels Mfg one is 100 euro and 99g. So far my choice. Still looking for a good option as far as delivery in Europe goes.

Hollandbikeshop sells Wheels Mfg BB86 bottom brackets. From the looks of it a little less expensive than the 100 euros you mentioned.


Thanks! I'm sort of waiting for a bargain crankset, which can either be Sram or FSA, so I can't order the BB yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
Had an answer from CarbonBikeKits.
They say I was supposed to be delivered 23mm rims and was given 25mm rims by accident, accounting for the weight.
I ordered 25mm 460g rims with them, so that is simply not true. The only rim they have that weighs enough to account for the difference is a 46mm tubeless one. I have now asked them which rims I was delivered.

The compensation they offered for basically sending me a wheelset I didn't order was a discount on my next purchase. That will obviously not work. I don't buy a new carbon wheelset every week. Curious to see what they will answer next.

I suppose the good news is that I have a mail from them that admits they shipped the wrong product. Should it come to a Paypal dispute, at least I have that.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:04 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:30 am 
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm
Posts: 354
if you buy via ebay - it is possible to demand aftersale service/compensations based on listings
if you buy via pp (webshop/email) - you only guaranteed to get what you see in pp invoice (email "pre-sale invoice" not respected)
(pp invoice usualy have common info: "wheels", etc; unless you order rims/hubs/spokes separately)

Open dispute, try to resell wheels locally for 1 week (tell them about this process, but do not close dispute)
in case you can sell wheels ask them for maximum discount for next rims order or free shipping
(do not order wheels, just rims, or rims+hubs, ask for pics before shipping, build in LBS)

_________________
'


Last edited by ooo on Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
ooo wrote:
if you buy via ebay - it is possible to demand aftersale service/compensations based on listings
if you buy via pp (webshop/email) - you only guaranteed to get what you see in pp invoice (email "pre-sale invoice" not respected)
(pp invoice usualy have common info: "wheels", etc; unless you order rims/hubs/spokes separately)

Open dispute, try to resell wheels locally for 1 week (tell them about this process, but do not close dispute)
in case you can sell wheels ask them for maximum discount for next rims order
(do not order wheels, just rims, or rims+hubs, build in lbs)


What you're saying is I'm basically screwed, since my Paypal Invoice doesn't specifically state the weight of the rims?


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:13 am 
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm
Posts: 354
if your pp invoice have width info ("23mm wheels") - this may help you (if they send you 25mm)

Use catalog link to identify rim before dispute. ask them for more info if you have problems with identification.

clincher 45mm 23mm U shape 470±15g (23mm width, 15.9mm inside)
clincher 45mm 25mm U shape 460±15g (28-25mm width, 17.5mm inside)
clincher 45mm 25mm U dimpled 485±15g (28-25mm width, 17.5mm inside)
tubeless 46mm 25mm U shape 540±15g (28-25mm width, 17.5mm inside)

Their non-tubeless 23mm and 25mm 45mm clinchers have the same weight.
May be they send you tubeless version (46mm/25 instead of 45mm/23)?

Shimano sold wheels with wrong weight/depth/width, it's a common thing:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=143554

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
ooo wrote:
if your pp invoice have width info ("23mm wheels") - this may help you (if they send you 25mm)

Use catalog link to identify rim before dispute. ask them for more info if you have problems with identification.

clincher 45mm 23mm U shape 470±15g (23mm width, 15.9mm inside)
clincher 45mm 25mm U shape 460±15g (28-25mm width, 17.5mm inside)
clincher 45mm 25mm U dimpled 485±15g (28-25mm width, 17.5mm inside)
tubeless 46mm 25mm U shape 540±15g (28-25mm width, 17.5mm inside)

Their non-tubeless 23mm and 25mm 45mm clinchers have the same weight.
May be they send you tubeless version (46mm/25 instead of 45mm/23)?

Shimano sold wheels with wrong weight/depth/width, it's a common thing:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=143554


Honestly that is the only explanation I can think of. I've indeed asked them to clarify just to be sure. I don't want to assume it is tubeless, because then I might actually run it tubeless. The invoice says 25mm U shape 45mm deep.

I just don't think a discount is a fair solution to sending the wrong product. They have made a mistake and thus I have to spend more money? A partial refund or sending me the right rims seems way more appropiate.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
So the saga continues.

- I've had further contact with CarbonBikeKits. Now they say that the rims are correct, but that the spokes + nipples weigh 8g/spoke+nipple. So I've now asked them how this is possible when a 1420 spoke weighs 4,3g and an alloy spoke less than half a gram. They have offered a reufnd if I send the wheels back to China, but I'm assuming I'll still have to pay for shipping. Before I decide I want to understand what exactly went wrong.

- I've been contacted by Workswell stating that the clearances are to tight for 28mm tires (which was one of the selling points of the frameset). They will try new prototypes and retesting, but can't give me even a rough estimate on when they will know more. So I have to decide what I will do about that.

- Workswell also informed me that the 165g seatpost I ordered will not go in production and that I will have to settle for a 200g one.

My Chinese regret-ometer is starting to rise to dangerous levels al this point. If anyone knows of a lightweight disc brake endurance frame, I might have to start considering alternatives (the budget is no higher than what I spent with Workswell).


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Posts: 227
Location: Wilmington, DE
Ticlimax wrote:
So the saga continues.

- I've had further contact with CarbonBikeKits. Now they say that the rims are correct, but that the spokes + nipples weigh 8g/spoke+nipple. So I've now asked them how this is possible when a 1420 spoke weighs 4,3g and an alloy spoke less than half a gram. They have offered a reufnd if I send the wheels back to China, but I'm assuming I'll still have to pay for shipping. Before I decide I want to understand what exactly went wrong.


My advice would be to just accept the wheels as is and move on. Shipping them back will be very costly, money you could put toward another set of lightweight wheels when you have the money. You went cheap and they turned out heavier than expected. At least it wasn't a pair of Dura carbon clinchers you bought (see other threads for that saga, or the Campagnolo wheel weight thread for that matter).

Ticlimax wrote:
- I've been contacted by Workswell stating that the clearances are to tight for 28mm tires (which was one of the selling points of the frameset). They will try new prototypes and retesting, but can't give me even a rough estimate on when they will know more. So I have to decide what I will do about that.

- Workswell also informed me that the 165g seatpost I ordered will not go in production and that I will have to settle for a 200g one.

My Chinese regret-ometer is starting to rise to dangerous levels al this point. If anyone knows of a lightweight disc brake endurance frame, I might have to start considering alternatives (the budget is no higher than what I spent with Workswell).


My Hong Fu FM079-F at ~1400 grams for the frame and fork and all hardware minus headset will definitely clear 28mm tires but I am not certain if it fits your definition of 'endurance' geometry. I set mine up for a fairly low position but with a larger frame size and/or some spacers and different handlebars and stem, a far more upright position could be obtained. Budget-wise, the frameset was around $700 delivered, potentially too expensive for you. It came with a fairly heavy seatpost (225 grams) which I sold and replaced with a Ritchey Superlogic.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
joejack951 wrote:

My Hong Fu FM079-F at ~1400 grams for the frame and fork and all hardware minus headset will definitely clear 28mm tires but I am not certain if it fits your definition of 'endurance' geometry. I set mine up for a fairly low position but with a larger frame size and/or some spacers and different handlebars and stem, a far more upright position could be obtained. Budget-wise, the frameset was around $700 delivered, potentially too expensive for you. It came with a fairly heavy seatpost (225 grams) which I sold and replaced with a Ritchey Superlogic.


I don't think it fits my definition of endurance... It's basically a Canyon Ultimate.
Unfortunately there are no geometry charts of my current race bike (Pro Race Scylla) with stack and reach numbers. All I know is that it is too big and/or agressive for me, so I can't really compare. I know my commuter isn't racy enough, but at 374 reach and 582 stack, it is reaaally relaxed. I'm currently leaning towards just accepting the Workswell.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Posts: 227
Location: Wilmington, DE
What size Prorace are you on? Stack and reach can be fairly accurately calculated from the numbers provided by Wiggle here: http://www.wiggle.com/prorace-scylla-sr ... inset-blk/

Based on what I can see, the size small Prorace is pretty much equivalent to my size 50cm FM079-F. The Prorace is shown with a shorter effective top tube (524 vs. 535) but it has a steeper seat tube angle (75 vs. 73.8 ) which shortens that measurement. Head tubes are within a few millimeters of each other. So the stack and reach for the size small should be fairly close to the 382 reach and 526 stack of the Hongfu to give you a baseline for comparison.

When you say your current frame is too big or aggressive, what on it is limiting you from getting a good fit? Your commuter is reaaally relaxed as you've noted.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
joejack951 wrote:
What size Prorace are you on? Stack and reach can be fairly accurately calculated from the numbers provided by Wiggle here: http://www.wiggle.com/prorace-scylla-sr ... inset-blk/

Based on what I can see, the size small Prorace is pretty much equivalent to my size 50cm FM079-F. The Prorace is shown with a shorter effective top tube (524 vs. 535) but it has a steeper seat tube angle (75 vs. 73.8 ) which shortens that measurement. Head tubes are within a few millimeters of each other. So the stack and reach for the size small should be fairly close to the 382 reach and 526 stack of the Hongfu to give you a baseline for comparison.

When you say your current frame is too big or aggressive, what on it is limiting you from getting a good fit? Your commuter is reaaally relaxed as you've noted.


I've only ever really felt comfortable on it when in my aero tuck (hand on the top of the hoods, not just on the hoods; with my head down and elbows as close to a 90 degree angle as I can get it) or with my hands on the bend (on top of the bars, directly behind the shifters). It is set up with a 90mm stem and still the reach is too much. I usually ride with a 10mm spacer, but because of backpain while climbing I'm trying 20mm. It has felt slightly worse, so I'm considering going back.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Posts: 227
Location: Wilmington, DE
Ticlimax wrote:
I've only ever really felt comfortable on it when in my aero tuck (hand on the top of the hoods, not just on the hoods; with my head down and elbows as close to a 90 degree angle as I can get it) or with my hands on the bend (on top of the bars, directly behind the shifters). It is set up with a 90mm stem and still the reach is too much. I usually ride with a 10mm spacer, but because of backpain while climbing I'm trying 20mm. It has felt slightly worse, so I'm considering going back.


If you don't want to go any shorter than a 90mm stem it might be worth swapping to shorter reach bars depending on what you have on there. The Ritchey bars I'm using are only 70mm reach which is the only reason I can comfortably get away with a 110mm stem.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:25 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
joejack951 wrote:

If you don't want to go any shorter than a 90mm stem it might be worth swapping to shorter reach bars depending on what you have on there. The Ritchey bars I'm using are only 70mm reach which is the only reason I can comfortably get away with a 110mm stem.


Have done that already. The frame is just too big for me. It is a size L. I've tried a stack and reach calculator with the numbers from Wiggle, and it says 395 and 557 for the Pro Race. I'm now looking at the Carbonda CFR505. It's heavy in comparison, but superwide clearances and fairly relaxed. I really should try to find more bikes to test ride.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Posts: 227
Location: Wilmington, DE
Ticlimax wrote:
Have done that already. The frame is just too big for me. It is a size L. I've tried a stack and reach calculator with the numbers from Wiggle, and it says 395 and 557 for the Pro Race. I'm now looking at the Carbonda CFR505. It's heavy in comparison, but superwide clearances and fairly relaxed. I really should try to find more bikes to test ride.


Got ya. That Carbonda seems to be what you are looking for. Geometry appears quite relaxed. Those massive tire clearances aren't my thing (my current 25mm tires seem 'fat' to me!) but if you'll fill up that space with something bigger then it is probably the way to go. Seems like a size medium would pull the bars in nicely (-20mm reach vs. current) and likely allow you to run without any spacers under the stem (+15mm stack vs. current) based on your current fit description.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
joejack951 wrote:
Ticlimax wrote:
Have done that already. The frame is just too big for me. It is a size L. I've tried a stack and reach calculator with the numbers from Wiggle, and it says 395 and 557 for the Pro Race. I'm now looking at the Carbonda CFR505. It's heavy in comparison, but superwide clearances and fairly relaxed. I really should try to find more bikes to test ride.


Got ya. That Carbonda seems to be what you are looking for. Geometry appears quite relaxed. Those massive tire clearances aren't my thing (my current 25mm tires seem 'fat' to me!) but if you'll fill up that space with something bigger then it is probably the way to go. Seems like a size medium would pull the bars in nicely (-20mm reach vs. current) and likely allow you to run without any spacers under the stem (+15mm stack vs. current) based on your current fit description.


If only it wasn't 225g heavier than the Workswell :D. (Massive tire clearances are indeed overkill, but rather that than not being able to run 28mm)


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Di2 Disc
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:32 pm 


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