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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:59 pm 
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You too

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My 6536gr TIME Skylon
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:59 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:00 pm 
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kgt wrote:
Anything that is mass produced in China can not be compared to a handmade in Europe or US frame in terms of manufacturing quality.
Examples of high quality frames? Many: All Time frames, hi-end Giant Frames, made in Waterloo Treks, Colnago C60s, the BMC Impec, Cipollinis, hi-end Parlees, hi-end Crumptons, high-end IFs, hi-end Sartos, hi-end AXs, hi-end Bassos etc. etc. etc. the list is big.

Do you really know who makes Canyon frames? Have you ever seen photos from the factory that produces these frames? No. You will never see probably.
Some info on how Time makes frames:
http://road.cc/content/feature/76753-inside-time


Anything? So everything produced in Europe or USA is better than everything produced in China/Taiwan? You sure about that?


kgt wrote:
If you cannot see how a Time or a Crumpton uses higher quality materials and is a product of a way more controlled, exact, intensive and sophisticated workmanship than a Canyon then, no, I cannot persuade you.

I am certain that Canyon frames are at the top in terms of performance but top performance does not equal top manufacturing quality. The performance of a Renault Megane RS can be at the top but its manufacturing quality is not. Is that clear?

Maybe if you show me a video from Canyon's factory (the actual one in China not the assembly line in Germany) I will change my mind. Until then...


What kind of carbon fiber and resin does Crumpton use? How does it differ from what the big brands use in China/Taiwan?

Lots of hubris on your part. Lots of manufacturing xenophobia on your part as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:10 pm 
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1. Learn how to read.
3. Crumpton uses Mitsubishi Rayon.
3. It's also about how you use carbon sheets and resins that matters.
4. Your definition of xenophobia proves your broader ignorance.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:16 pm 
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kgt wrote:
1. Learn how to read.
3. Crumpton uses Mitsubishi Rayon.
3. It's also about how you use carbon sheets and resins that matters.
4. Your definition of xenophobia proves your broader ignorance.


By Definition you are xenophobia.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:21 pm 
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kgt wrote:
1. Learn how to read.
3. Crumpton uses Mitsubishi Rayon.
3. It's also about how you use carbon sheets and resins that matters.
4. Your definition of xenophobia proves your broader ignorance.


1. WTF does that even mean?

3. Please tell us how Mitsubishi Rayon is better than the premium material sold by Toray Industries or Teijin Limited or SGL Group or Zoltek. Please do go on.

3. So what is this secret sauce that only Crumpton and Time know about, but the USA and European engineers that have their frames produced in China/Taiwan don't know about.

4. My comment went so far over your head, you didn't even notice it zoom by you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:04 pm 
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"By Definition you are xenophobia"
"My comment went so far over your head, you didn't even notice it zoom by you"
...
it could be funny if it wasn't ridiculous...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Gents, are we still discussing where Canyon bikes are made, or are we arguing on the internet?



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:40 am 
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Schwalbe tires are mostly made in Indonesia, but some fairly reasonably priced Continental tires are handmade in Germany. The quality is honesty quite similar but is there a wider question of environmental integrity, employment fairness and community responsibility?

For me it's about ethics....if a company moves its location of manufacture then its home workers are screwed over for the benefit of shareholders and profit. Also the consumer is confused and many would pay a little more for a product made in the country of the manufacturers origin. Would you rather have a Pirelli motorcycle tire made in Italy, Germany or China?

I believe sometimes consumers should reward manufacturers that do the right thing and manufacture in their country of origin instead of constantly moving manufacture around to save money. Or at least have some of their range manufactured at 'home'.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:53 am 
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Agreed. I try to support those companies that do more than just design their frames. I understand the economics behind the offshoring of manufacturing, but these same manufacturers will simultaneously boast that their frames were designed in california, italy or switzerland and downplay origin of manufacture. Just be forthcoming about it and pass some savings on to the customer. (e.g. Lightweight Urgestalt, Specialized Venge Vias, etc.)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:44 am 
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tranzformer wrote:
kgt wrote:
1. Learn how to read.
3. Crumpton uses Mitsubishi Rayon.
3. It's also about how you use carbon sheets and resins that matters.
4. Your definition of xenophobia proves your broader ignorance.


1. WTF does that even mean?

3. Please tell us how Mitsubishi Rayon is better than the premium material sold by Toray Industries or Teijin Limited or SGL Group or Zoltek. Please do go on.

3. So what is this secret sauce that only Crumpton and Time know about, but the USA and European engineers that have their frames produced in China/Taiwan don't know about.

4. My comment went so far over your head, you didn't even notice it zoom by you.


kgt won't be able to tell you how Mitsubishi Rayon is better than the premium material sold by Toray Industries/Teijin Limited/SGL Group/Zoltek because there isn't any major difference. The premium carbon fiber from those other sources is just as good when comparing like to like.

Also, there is no difference in the secret sauce that Crumpton or Time or Cippolini know. Actually, they probably don't have nearly the expertise in composites as some of the larger companies that have composite specific engineers on the bike design teams.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:58 am 
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53x12, this topic was quieting down. there is no need to fan the flames. Please let this rest and lets discuss where bike parts are made. canyon esp.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:07 am 
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Frankie - B wrote:
53x12, this topic was quieting down. there is no need to fan the flames. Please let this rest and lets discuss where bike parts are made. canyon esp.


If a member is going to post that frames made in China/Taiwan (Canyon) are inferior to frames that are made in Europe/USA because of 'craftsmanship' and materials used, than that is very valid to this discussion that it is utter BS that only those making frames in Europe or USA have access to special carbon fiber that those that produce in China/Taiwan have access to. This isn't fanning the flame but falling out a statement that has to backing to support it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:11 am 
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I tend to agree that with the proper QC the frames should be fine no matter it's MIC or MI-whereever.

However, China is a fascinating country that mfg QC is not easy to maintain... workers could be skillful, but......


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:34 am 
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Location: Surrey, UK
Taiwan factories

Giant - Giant frames and others
Ten Tech Composites - Cervélo, Ridley, Specialized, Colnago
G&M Carbon Components - BMC
Quest - not sure which frames
Topkey - Cannondale
Carbotec - Pinarello

Most have been making frames for 20 odd years, also they employ very young adults who make the frames and a lot of frames are chucked out at the end of the process when testing is carried out 1/30 approx I read. Ten Tech have the best reputation, where they only work 45 hour weeks and more quality testing is carried out and also Ten Tech have a great deal more unidirectional carbon in the high stress areas such as BB. Most of the above are sweat shop factories, nothing can beat Time who make their carbon weave with extra care with high in house technology.

I have a Colnago & a Time and appreciate both, but my Time NXRS still gives me a great feeling of knowing the frame is made with precision and care.


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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:34 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:54 am 
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canoas wrote:
Taiwan factories

Giant - Giant frames and others
Ten Tech Composites - Cervélo, Ridley, Specialized, Colnago
G&M Carbon Components - BMC
Quest - not sure which frames
Topkey - Cannondale
Carbotec - Pinarello

Most have been making frames for 20 odd years, also they employ very young adults who make the frames and a lot of frames are chucked out at the end of the process when testing is carried out 1/30 approx I read. Ten Tech have the best reputation, where they only work 45 hour weeks and more quality testing is carried out and also Ten Tech have a great deal more unidirectional carbon in the high stress areas such as BB. Most of the above are sweat shop factories, nothing can beat Time who make their carbon weave with extra care with high in house technology.

I have a Colnago & a Time and appreciate both, but my Time NXRS still gives me a great feeling of knowing the frame is made with precision and care.

I don't want to go into this discussion. But some facts:

Quest make Trek and Canyon. Giant also make Colnago. At least they did.
Giant also weave their own carbon sheets from raw carbon fiber.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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