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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:58 pm 
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Location: Athens, Greece
wwnick wrote:
kgt wrote:
They do the right thing (Canyon deserves our credit) but they need this extra safety check because their manufacturing standards are not the best. Sorry but that's the only reason.
Any comparison to aerospace enginneering, high end motorsport engines etc. is irrelevant.


that should need some sort of substantiation, that, "their manufacturing standards are not the best."
but seeing us this is just a forum/opinion board, please let us know why you think "their manufacturing standards are not the best."
A comparison to who is the best and why would be very nice.

By no means am I a expert on bicycle manufacturing standards and absolutely would like to know more so I am all ears.


Anything that is mass produced in China can not be compared to a handmade in Europe or US frame in terms of manufacturing quality.
Examples of high quality frames? Many: All Time frames, hi-end Giant Frames, made in Waterloo Treks, Colnago C60s, the BMC Impec, Cipollinis, hi-end Parlees, hi-end Crumptons, high-end IFs, hi-end Sartos, hi-end AXs, hi-end Bassos etc. etc. etc. the list is big.

Do you really know who makes Canyon frames? Have you ever seen photos from the factory that produces these frames? No. You will never see probably.
Some info on how Time makes frames:
http://road.cc/content/feature/76753-inside-time

_________________
My 6536gr TIME Skylon
My 9733gr COLNAGO Master X-light


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:56 pm
Posts: 218
ahah
BMC Impec was the biggest fail of cycling history
you know nothing
It was made by machines in Switzerland not in mass but still

Even pros didn't want to ride it
Cause it sucked
Maybe nice finish with lugs etc but stupid frame

Colnago C60 are nice frames but they are only glued in Italy ...
I love their size chart and ride quality tough


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Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:53 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:37 am 
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Posts: 121
askeAnker wrote:
mpulsiv wrote:
It's a reason that brands like Fuji have been doing so well in China recently. Even their lower end carbon fiber bikes are made in Taiwan and are reasonably priced.


I talked to a Chinese manufacturer that was subcontracting Fuji frame production for a Taiwanese manufacturer.
They could have been lying, but I find it hard to believe that Spec, Trek and Giant all have frames made in China and Fuji not...

Lewn777 wrote:
...Chinese steer away from anything made in their mainland...


Wow, that really limits their selection in certain categories. How do they even find a smartphone!?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

I have a 2017 Fuji SL3.3 which is made in Taiwan, although that could be a Canyon 'Made in Germany' trick. Although although some of the steel frame fixies etc are certainly made in China.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:45 am 
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Posts: 21
Composite manufacture using moulds is baby easy.

When a new material is introduced into an industry some if not all players go through teething due to inexperience. I think most bike manufacturers are past that stage.

Problems that may still exist are poor glue selection and less than optimal lay up. A bit extra material can compensate for both.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:08 am 
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Posts: 32
Lewn777 wrote:
askeAnker wrote:
mpulsiv wrote:
It's a reason that brands like Fuji have been doing so well in China recently. Even their lower end carbon fiber bikes are made in Taiwan and are reasonably priced.


I talked to a Chinese manufacturer that was subcontracting Fuji frame production for a Taiwanese manufacturer.
They could have been lying, but I find it hard to believe that Spec, Trek and Giant all have frames made in China and Fuji not...

Lewn777 wrote:
...Chinese steer away from anything made in their mainland...


Wow, that really limits their selection in certain categories. How do they even find a smartphone!?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

I have a 2017 Fuji SL3.3 which is made in Taiwan, although that could be a Canyon 'Made in Germany' trick. Although although some of the steel frame fixies etc are certainly made in China.

Does Canyon use made in Germany?? Ha! Anyways, by now, most of the Taiwanese manufacturers have either their own factories in China or a close cooperation with selected Chinese factories.
So I guess having a production made in Taiwan is no guarantee for it to be made by Taiwanese hands. And as you say, they can probably still mark it as made in Taiwan.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:21 am 
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Posts: 9
I know that it is made in Taiwan.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm
Posts: 106
kgt wrote:
Anything that is mass produced in China can not be compared to a handmade in Europe or US frame in terms of manufacturing quality.

Examples of high quality frames? Many: All Time frames, hi-end Giant Frames, made in Waterloo Treks, Colnago C60s, the BMC Impec, Cipollinis, hi-end Parlees, hi-end Crumptons, high-end IFs, hi-end Sartos, hi-end AXs, hi-end Bassos etc. etc. etc. the list is big.


:lol: i live in spain where they can f*ck up making a sandwich, let alone a high tech composite components. europe is the land of where gas station attendants smoke as the pump your gas. ok, I admit it, that was what i saw in italy, but having lived in germany, it is not as the sterotype suggests, however they work very hard to keep that myth alive, but that is it. America, well look at the president, says it all about that country. So my point is, that people are same everywhere, good and bad, so people should not be judged by locality.

your reply does not persuade me of your original comment regards manufacturing standards not being the best. Canyon stated they have 0.5% - 1% rejects. to me this does not seem huge. Considering when "high end/price" brands (Trek, Cervelo, Enve etc) have had to make recalls for entire product models.

regards, handmade, all carbon frames are handmade, are they not? A mass producer would have a great advantage in terms of experience, as each worker will have hand made many more frames than a single brand. Due to volume, any problems would be discovered much earlier than a single brand. As this is a new and evolving industry, this experience would put the mass (handmade) producer manufacture above the small producer in terms of quality.

these example you list, why are they examples? what makes them high quality?

this is just the way I see it :noidea:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:07 pm 
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If you cannot see how a Time or a Crumpton uses higher quality materials and is a product of a way more controlled, exact, intensive and sophisticated workmanship than a Canyon then, no, I cannot persuade you.

I am certain that Canyon frames are at the top in terms of performance but top performance does not equal top manufacturing quality. The performance of a Renault Megane RS can be at the top but its manufacturing quality is not. Is that clear?

Maybe if you show me a video from Canyon's factory (the actual one in China not the assembly line in Germany) I will change my mind. Until then...

_________________
My 6536gr TIME Skylon
My 9733gr COLNAGO Master X-light


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Posts: 106
kgt wrote:
If you cannot see how a Time or a Crumpton uses higher quality materials and is a product of a way more controlled, exact, intensive and sophisticated workmanship than a Canyon then, no, I cannot persuade you.

I am certain that Canyon frames are at the top in terms of performance but top performance does not equal top manufacturing quality. The performance of a Renault Megane RS can be at the top but its manufacturing quality is not. Is that clear?

Maybe if you show me a video from Canyon's factory (the actual one in China not the assembly line in Germany) I will change my mind. Until then...


higher quality materials? don't they all use Toray carbon? Cnyon included. Furtther, Time spin their own carbon so it does not even have a standard attached to it, versus the industry standard Toray pre-preg sheets, so you have absolutely no idea of the quality of carbon that Time uses in their frames.

way more controlled, exact, intensive and sophisticated workmanship? I cannot see this as they have not published this info. I read the Time article which does noy go into the great detail of Giant Bicyles, a mass producer that has posted videos where I can see their "controlled, exact, intensive and sophisticated workmanship".

Maybe if you show me? huh? it is not me making the bold claims, I was here hoping to learn something but this seems to be going nowhere and I think it is pretty stupid to say something is better, "just because it is".

by the way here is link for canyon manufacturer ( over 40 years of composite knowledge ) : http://questcomposite.com/technology-analysis.html


Last edited by wwnick on Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:21 pm
Posts: 17
kgt wrote:
wwnick wrote:
kgt wrote:
They do the right thing (Canyon deserves our credit) but they need this extra safety check because their manufacturing standards are not the best. Sorry but that's the only reason.
Any comparison to aerospace enginneering, high end motorsport engines etc. is irrelevant.


that should need some sort of substantiation, that, "their manufacturing standards are not the best."
but seeing us this is just a forum/opinion board, please let us know why you think "their manufacturing standards are not the best."
A comparison to who is the best and why would be very nice.

By no means am I a expert on bicycle manufacturing standards and absolutely would like to know more so I am all ears.


Anything that is mass produced in China can not be compared to a handmade in Europe or US frame in terms of manufacturing quality.
Examples of high quality frames? Many: All Time frames, hi-end Giant Frames, made in Waterloo Treks, Colnago C60s, the BMC Impec, Cipollinis, hi-end Parlees, hi-end Crumptons, high-end IFs, hi-end Sartos, hi-end AXs, hi-end Bassos etc. etc. etc. the list is big.

Do you really know who makes Canyon frames? Have you ever seen photos from the factory that produces these frames? No. You will never see probably.
Some info on how Time makes frames:
http://road.cc/content/feature/76753-inside-time


So simple minded , looks like you have little experience making anything, It matters not where things are made -- BUT who is making them them


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:54 pm
Posts: 131
This is such a complicated topic it deserves its own thread under a more general title of 'History and Heritage of Manufacturing' or something lol.

It's simply no longer the case of an all or nothing approach. To be perfectly honest, I personally much prefer 'Made in Italy/France/Germany/US/Japan/etc.' over Chinese-made products, but primarily for ethical and (usually) quality reasons, not to mention economics. The problem is: a 'name brand' or a high price is not necessarily synonymous with high quality. SOME Chinese made products are superior quality, but many are not since they are mass-produced. So I would echo @alajuela here: it comes down to who is making it, their experience, and their commitment to craftsmanship.

I've had 'made in Italy' items that weren't that great, and 'made in China' items that were (and still are!) excellent. When it comes to bikes though, I admit that heritage is important to me, which is why I prefer European/US made bikes. I also like the idea of supporting local workers and businesses.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:50 pm 
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Posts: 6677
Location: Athens, Greece
alajuela wrote:
So simple minded , looks like you have little experience making anything, It matters not where things are made -- BUT who is making them them

Ingenious post... do you have anything specific to contribute or not?

_________________
My 6536gr TIME Skylon
My 9733gr COLNAGO Master X-light


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm
Posts: 106
Maybe a title of "Bicycle Industry Bullshit Detector" and it be limited to facts instead of opinions :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Posts: 6677
Location: Athens, Greece
Waiting for your facts then.

_________________
My 6536gr TIME Skylon
My 9733gr COLNAGO Master X-light


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm
Posts: 106
you are the one with unsubstantiated claims, I have only been asking questions, i am new here and I suppose I was a fool not to spot the troll.

have a nice day


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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:57 pm 


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