Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!
Moderator: robbosmans
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fromtrektocolnago
- Posts: 1145
- Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm
by fromtrektocolnago on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:01 pm
askeAnker wrote:This is a really good article on the subject. I like the differentiation of cowboy (often copy) and competent (often open mould) manufacturers. They list the big brands and their manufacturers in the end.
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/cream- ... -it/019441Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Makes sense to me. The idea that a company contracted to produce bikes for a Western company would simply be able to spit out knock-offs without running into legal jeopardy or risk losing future business never made any sense. Always believed they were made elsewhere in China by individuals with nothing to lose. Occam's razor once again.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels
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askeAnker
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 12:15 am
by askeAnker on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:12 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:askeAnker wrote:This is a really good article on the subject. I like the differentiation of cowboy (often copy) and competent (often open mould) manufacturers. They list the big brands and their manufacturers in the end.
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/cream- ... -it/019441Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Makes sense to me. The idea that a company contracted to produce bikes for a Western company would simply be able to spit out knock-offs without running into legal jeopardy or risk losing future business never made any sense. Always believed they were made elsewhere in China by individuals with nothing to lose. Occam's razor once again.
Exactly. The whole "they are all made by the same factory anyways" is far from true. I've never liked the copy frames. As you say, they're made by people who has nothing to loose and don't give a s**t once the sale is done.
The "competent" factories on the other hand are often up-and-coming smaller factories that usually has 3 channels of income: 1. Direct sales 2. Smaller brands 3. Subcontracting for the Taiwanese manufacturers.
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Broady
- Posts: 678
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:02 pm
by Broady on Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:15 pm
There was a Taiwan manufacturing article a while back that showed the Giant (Merida) factory, had a load of bare Canyons in the background so some are definitely made there (or used to be anyway).
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wheelsONfire
- Posts: 6283
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
- Location: NorthEU
by wheelsONfire on Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:22 pm
From 2017 all Eddy Merckx frames are also CT-scanned
Bikes:
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
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kgt
- Posts: 8749
- Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
- Location: Athens, Greece
by kgt on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:26 pm
Really..?
If you know you have a top product, if you make everything in house, if you control your production and you are not based on outsourcing then you don't need to scan anything.
Spending £400,000 for a scanner is nothing compared to the cost savings of made in China. Can you imagine Ernesto scanning his C60 frames? That would be ridiculous.
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mattr
- Posts: 4671
- Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
- Location: The Grim North.
by mattr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:55 pm
High end automotive are making very small production runs dozens to hundreds, potentially with very different designs from model to model (or PTno. to PTno.). You don't get a process perfect, so you expect scrap rates. And you need NDI to do it properly.
Bike industry is doing tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands using very very similar designs (and processes).
You can get a stable process, you don't need to inspect 100%. Unless you think the increased customer perception of a brand doing 100% inspection is worth it. It might be worth dropping 400 grand on an inspection machine, if it gains you an extra million a year in profit.
The comment regarding aerospace being 100% inspected is a little misleading. Each part will have some inspection done at some point. But it's not 100% of each part, or even 100% of all parts. It's based on likelihood and effect of failure. So something thats a bit of a poor design and fails/wears out "regularly" and they don't really have much confidence in might be 100% of each component.
Everything else will be less than that, some by quite a lot!
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kgt
- Posts: 8749
- Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
- Location: Athens, Greece
by kgt on Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:29 pm
They do the right thing (Canyon deserves our credit) but they need this extra safety check because their manufacturing standards are not the best. Sorry but that's the only reason.
Any comparison to aerospace enginneering, high end motorsport engines etc. is irrelevant.
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wwnick
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm
by wwnick on Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:39 pm
kgt wrote:They do the right thing (Canyon deserves our credit) but they need this extra safety check because their manufacturing standards are not the best. Sorry but that's the only reason.
Any comparison to aerospace enginneering, high end motorsport engines etc. is irrelevant.
that should need some sort of substantiation, that, "their manufacturing standards are not the best."
but seeing us this is just a forum/opinion board, please let us know why you think "their manufacturing standards are not the best."
A comparison to who is the best and why would be very nice.
By no means am I a expert on bicycle manufacturing standards and absolutely would like to know more so I am all ears.
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mpulsiv
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm
by mpulsiv on Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:11 pm
Lewn777 wrote:Ironically I live in China and Chinese riders hate bikes that are made in China. The anger is due to the premium prices for things that are made 'down the road' and therefore should be reasonably priced, yet the prices are more expensive than in the west. Plus there is some confusion over Trek/Giant and Merida/Specialized as some of their bikes are made in Taiwan and others are made in China.
It's a reason that brands like Fuji have been doing so well in China recently. Even their lower end carbon fiber bikes are made in Taiwan and are reasonably priced.
Ironically, you are not the first person to state this. I'm not surprised as to why Chinese steer away from anything made in their mainland. Cost is not the main reason. They are well aware as what's going on behind the curtains. Bike industry aside, I find it humorous to hear the trash talk coming from Chinese when I verbally ask what they think of A-Z products made in the mainland China.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.
CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder
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FIJIGabe
- Posts: 2241
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:07 pm
- Location: The Lone Star State
by FIJIGabe on Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:41 pm
kkibbler wrote:Made in China, not Taiwan. Same factory where Madones are made.
All H2 Madones are manufactured in Taiwan, not China. H1 Madones are manufactured in Waterloo, Wisconsin.
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fromtrektocolnago
- Posts: 1145
- Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm
by fromtrektocolnago on Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:13 pm
mpulsiv wrote:Lewn777 wrote:Ironically I live in China and Chinese riders hate bikes that are made in China. The anger is due to the premium prices for things that are made 'down the road' and therefore should be reasonably priced, yet the prices are more expensive than in the west. Plus there is some confusion over Trek/Giant and Merida/Specialized as some of their bikes are made in Taiwan and others are made in China.
It's a reason that brands like Fuji have been doing so well in China recently. Even their lower end carbon fiber bikes are made in Taiwan and are reasonably priced.
Ironically, you are not the first person to state this. I'm not surprised as to why Chinese steer away from anything made in their mainland. Cost is not the main reason. They are well aware as what's going on behind the curtains. Bike industry aside, I find it humorous to hear the trash talk coming from Chinese when I verbally ask what they think of A-Z products made in the mainland China.
China is becoming brand conscious and affluent. The people are buying Rolex Watches, First growth Bordeaux wines, BMW's and name brand western bikes.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels
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askeAnker
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 12:15 am
by askeAnker on Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:13 pm
mpulsiv wrote:It's a reason that brands like Fuji have been doing so well in China recently. Even their lower end carbon fiber bikes are made in Taiwan and are reasonably priced.
I talked to a Chinese manufacturer that was subcontracting Fuji frame production for a Taiwanese manufacturer.
They could have been lying, but I find it hard to believe that Spec, Trek and Giant all have frames made in China and Fuji not...
Lewn777 wrote:...Chinese steer away from anything made in their mainland...
Wow, that really limits their selection in certain categories. How do they even find a smartphone!?
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