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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:37 am 
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smartyiak wrote:
ome rodriguez wrote:
Kittel on a different bike in today's mountain stage 12.

Image


You'd think he'd get a new Tarmac? (maybe one of those "superstition" things?)

He has a new Tarmac frame with green decals as well. I don't know why he's on the old one here.

Concerning his Venge Disc: The Venge Vias is actually one of the very few bikes that look better with disc brakes (or well - less ugly). Also, the Vias rim brakes are not on par with standard Shimano rim brakes and I think are heavier as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:56 pm 
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bilwit wrote:
why wouldn't Porte have locked his wheel with disc brakes? he would have had the same issue going into that corner with that speed and in that line.. would be the exact same result if he had more powerful brakes


If you think discs only offer more power than rim brakes, I don't know what to tell you.

They offer much more modulation than rim brakes, of any variety.


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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:56 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:22 pm 
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LeDuke wrote:
bilwit wrote:
why wouldn't Porte have locked his wheel with disc brakes? he would have had the same issue going into that corner with that speed and in that line.. would be the exact same result if he had more powerful brakes


If you think discs only offer more power than rim brakes, I don't know what to tell you.

They offer much more modulation than rim brakes, of any variety.


But they don't compensate for operator error, it was pointed out in this instance, there were several riders around Porte who did not crash and they were also on calipers......if Porte had been using discs the other riders would probably have crashed due to the banshee wail of Porte's discs taking them by surprise.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:55 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
It's the hydraulics that give the feel... not the discs.

Anyone who has used both Magura Rim brakes and discs would tell you that you are absolutely and utterly wrong on this one.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but a disc is a much better braking surface than a rim, due to regularity, non-compressability, less water film when wet.

This is not in any way controversial or unknown, so why are people still pushing "Rim brakes are just as good" when they know that the evidence is massively against them?

Also, chalk up another disc win for a pro who clearly failed to read the memo of "Pro's don't want discs". It's the index shifting discussion all over again, once again with Campagnolo dragging it's feet which caused some pro's to scoff at the notion. At the same time everyone who went entry level 105 never looked back again to friction shifting (or single pivots). A few years later when Campagnolo lost their market share and followed sit the whole discussion was quaint. even by pro's standards. The move from rim brakes to discs is functionally just as big (bigger than dual pivots for sure)... and in a few years nobody will be talking about this anymore.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:51 am 
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What we need is antilock brakes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:11 am 
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I'm wondering if the exchanges in this thread will ever go anywhere. haha :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:55 am 
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MikeD wrote:
What we need is antilock brakes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I can see electronically controlled ABS applying to the next evolution of disc brakes.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:09 am 
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Franklin wrote:
Calnago wrote:
It's the hydraulics that give the feel... not the discs.

Anyone who has used both Magura Rim brakes and discs would tell you that you are absolutely and utterly wrong on this one.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but a disc is a much better braking surface than a rim, due to regularity, non-compressability, less water film when wet.

This is not in any way controversial or unknown, so why are people still pushing "Rim brakes are just as good" when they know that the evidence is massively against them?

Also, chalk up another disc win for a pro who clearly failed to read the memo of "Pro's don't want discs". It's the index shifting discussion all over again, once again with Campagnolo dragging it's feet which caused some pro's to scoff at the notion. At the same time everyone who went entry level 105 never looked back again to friction shifting (or single pivots). A few years later when Campagnolo lost their market share and followed sit the whole discussion was quaint. even by pro's standards. The move from rim brakes to discs is functionally just as big (bigger than dual pivots for sure)... and in a few years nobody will be talking about this anymore.

I've used both. I have a touring bike set up with Magura Hydraulic rim brakes. Finger easy to operate compared to cables, that's why I put them on. I have tried out discs as well and on balance, the cons outweigh the benefits to me. Yes, a disc is a good hard surface to brake on. Harder than alloy. Don't know about carbon. Carbon is much harder than aluminum for sure. But at the end of the day, the ease of braking and "feel" imo comes mostly from the hydraulics. That's coming from someone that has indeed used both. It's no secret I'm quite fine with rim brakes. A lot of people are. Disc brakes on nice road bikes gets a big fat "meh" at best from me. And it's quite apparent that the pros aren't clamoring for them either. Again, read the title of the thread. There are lots of uses for discs where they are great, but that's not what this thread is about. If I was commuting all winter and had to ride my bike every day, rain or shine regardless, then I would likely have discs, but along with those discs I would have full fenders and flaps. And there are many who prefer them... even in the dry, so good for you guys. Be happy you can ride what you perceive as something better than what the pros choose to ride. Yay for you. Don't sweat that the pros don't really care about them.

And it is not at all the same as the "index shifting discussion all over again". Riders couldn't get their hands on that technology fast enough. Not so with discs, despite how hard some, not all, manufacturers have been pushing them. And I don't know about any memos going around in the peloton, but I presume you're talking about Kittel's win on his disc equipped bike... hmmm... that's nice for him. I'm sure those discs really helped that sprint of his. But it was kind of interesting when he chose to use the rim braked bike, even during a wet mountain stage, over the disc bike, when his finishing time really was a factor to be considered.

All I've done was point out a very valid alternative to a complete redesign of frames, wheels etc.... that being hydraulic rim brakes. And even then, I'd still have the same reaction... "meh", simply because my current rim brakes are perfectly fine, for me. If I thought they were lacking, then sure, give me sommadoes discs or hydraulic rim brakes. But it sure would be whole lot easier to implement that type of change, which is not really what the industry wants if they're looking to create new markets and new revenue streams.

Anyway, it's all been hashed to death, but I will always stand up for the case for good rim brakes on high end road bikes until I feel that the advantages of discs outweigh those of rim brakes in all aspects, including frame design, performance, weight, aesthetics, etc., I don't care just how fast I or the guy in front of me can slam on the brakes coming to a stop sign. Whoopie, that's always pleasant in a group. I stood up and blasted the placement of the brakes on the Colnago VR-1 when it came out... it's nice to see that brake placement on road bikes has pretty much been abandoned now. And I got some backlash for daring to suggest that the Vias braking looked a little dodgy to me when they first introduced it. I listen to the arguments for both sides, and on balance still think there is a very strong case for rim brakes at the highest level of racing.

Again, to answer the original question of this thread... "Why is no one using disc brakes in the tour?", the answer simply boils down to a big fat "Meh". It's a bicycle. It stops just fine. So, come back and laugh at me when all the pros have been forced to adopt disc brakes and there are no more rim brakes around. But until then... enjoy your super stopping disc braked road bikes. Sccreeeeech.

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Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:11 am 
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justaute wrote:
I'm wondering if the exchanges in this thread will ever go anywhere. haha :)

ha, not likely, it's one thread in a forum with a few guys expressing their points of view.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Posts: 400
Calnago if you used Magura Rim brakes you also know very well you bended the truth by claiming it was just the hydraulics. And that's with ten years usage of HS 33 with brake boosters. Your claim is utterly wrong in the wet (a case of physics) and actually also nonsense in the dry(sorry, physics... complain to the universe). It's a matter of how the brakes work.

A discussion where people try to bend facts so they can ram through their personal opinion is not on fair grounds. And yeah you are pushing a point of view by trying very hard to deny facts. Whereas those who like disc brakes stick very hard to the facts. This is a case of faith versus facts, Galileo versus the church :)

Measurable extra performance.... it's indeed index shifting pearl clutching again.

justaute wrote:
I'm wondering if the exchanges in this thread will ever go anywhere. haha :)


In a few years this wil be a non-discussion. Everybody knows it. In the meanwhile it is really something to see people trying very hard to deny simple physics.

Those who dislike the aesthetics have a point as that's debatable. Anyone claiming braking gains are minor is just using his hindside for creating sounds.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Meh... I don't think I'm really "bending the facts" any more than you were by implying the feel is all about the rotors with no mention as to how much the hydraulics play a part in all that. I happen to believe the hydraulics play a much greater part in producing that relatively easy effort to actuate the brakes than the rotors. But yeah, that's like, just my opinion, man.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Posts: 339
MikeD wrote:
What we need is antilock brakes.


I accidentaly converted one of my disc brake pads to antilock by spilling some oil
they have same stopping power from high speed down to may be 5 km/h,
from 5km/h to 0 km/h deacceleration is slower and they are very loud (doubles as emergency signal)
and I can still get fast deacceleration and silent braking from 5km/h to 0km/h with help of second brake

I already got replacement pads, but I don't want to change them, it works like ABS.

it have same effects for acceleration from 0 to 5km/h:
if try to to pull brake lever - brake is not locked and is very loud,
after 5 km/h it is silent and I have to release brake to be able to accelerate from 5km/h

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Last edited by ooo on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:07 pm 
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ooo wrote:
MikeD wrote:
What we need is antilock brakes.


I accidentaly converted one of my disc brake pads to antilock by spilling some oil
they have same stopping power from high speed down to may be 5 km/h,
from 5km/h to 0 km/h deacceleration is slower and they are very loud (doubles as emergency signal)
and I can still get fast deacceleration and silent braking from 5km/h to 0km/h with help of second brake

I already got replacement pads, but I don't want to change them, it works like ABS.

it have same effects for acceleration from 0 to 5km/h:
if try to to pull brake lever - brake is not locked and is very loud,
after 5 km/h it is silent and I have release brake to accelerate from 5km/h


Huh?

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"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Posts: 339
front abs chemical surface:
Image

rear normal shiny surface:
Image

side by side:
Image

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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:29 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:57 pm 
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ooo wrote:
front abs chemical surface:
Image

rear normal shiny surface:
Image

side by side:
Image


Just take the pads out and cook 'em to get rid of the contaminates.....


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