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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Posts: 72
Hello,

So, been browsing around for frames for a while looking to find a deal and start a build. This wouldn't be my first bike build, but it would be the first geared bike build. I built 2 single speeds before, albeit not on a weight weenie mindset. I recently found what could be a good deal on a CR1 frame and I am looking into my first semi budget build. Just wanted to get some feedback. I got some broad numbers on weight and cost. The list is as follows:

Scott CR1 49cm : 950g
Scott CR1 fork: 380g
Force 1 w/ 50t groupset w/ 10-42 cassette or standard Force 22: ~2,200g (PF86)
DT Swiss R24 Spline: 1800g (assumed with skewers)
Dedad Zero 100 bar: 250g
Deda Zero 100 stem: 100g
Deda Superzero post: 210g
Pro Falcon saddle: 205g
Schwalbe One tubeless with sealant: ~600g
Standard Deda cork-ish tape: ~100 (assumed because I don't have any to weight with me now)
Flat pedals: 350g

That leaves me at an assumed ~7,145g for between eur1,800-2,000. I already own the post, stem and bars. All else is being bought. I can't find a better price for a Force 22/1 groupset anywhere else for now (eur780 for 22 and 909 for Force 1 with long cage and 10-42t cassette)

I am not keen on clipless pedals, so I am placing here a weight of a light-ish set of pedals I once read about. I have a pair of Shimano Saints which are heavy at 500g but bomb proof. Will def prefer a lighter set of pedals that come with the screw-in teeth at 350g.

I know that ~7kg is not particularly weight weenie, but for around the budget I got above, I thought it would be a good bang for buck.

Can I stretch to RED?....maybe It's a eur400 difference between the Force 1 set up and eur520 more than the Force 22 set up. If my calculations are right, the weight difference between RED and Force is 250-300g. From what I read, unless I was to race, I would not benefit much from REDs other benefits besides weight saving.

eur250 more saves 200g (assumed) for a pair of Pro Lite Bortola wheelset compared to the DT Swiss R24.

There is something quite attractive, to me, to have the simplicity of the x1 system where the lowest gear has a 1.25 ratio and the highest has a ratio of 5. Weight wise, it might be a tad heavier than the Force 22 set up because of the bigger cassette and the bigger cage.

I like doing long rides. I am expecting to be living in a hilly area by the end of the year (hence the 10-42t cassette or 11-28t with a compact on a Force 22 combo) but I am keen to extend my current 1hr20min rides to 2.5-3hr rides. Racing only against myself.

What do you guys think?

PoWeenie

Edit: Also found the Planet X RT-80 which could be slightly cheaper than the CR1 deal I found but I am liking the matt black look of it more. (Yes, I know the RT80 looks like, and could be, a Deng-fu/Hong fu frame but at least it comes with a warranty and a returns policy)


Last edited by possibleweenie on Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:21 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:23 pm 
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The force 22 crank is pretty heavy, might we worth it to go for red


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:02 pm 
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jobvisser wrote:
The force 22 crank is pretty heavy, might we worth it to go for red


You mean just change the crankset or go full red?

If I go full red, it would be, in the best case scenario, eur400 more for saving 300grams? Actually, finding just the red 11spd crankset is a bit hard for under eur300. If I sell the Force crankset and buy the Red crankset I spend maybe eur150 more for 80g difference.

EDIT: my bad. 609g vs 715. So, 150eur for 106g. Somewhat a tiny bit more expensive than going wheelset change for eur250 for 200g.

Another thought: Force 22 without the FD and taking the small ring out for a saving of 180g and running it in a x1 combo....?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:53 pm 
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That doesn't look like a budget build to me. Rival is negligibly heavier than Force if you can get 10 speed OCT crank arms instead of the Rival 1/22 crank arms and use the Force 1 cassette. I've also had the issue where Schwalbe One tires seem to come in on average, ~8% heavier than advertised, because apparently when Schwalbe advertises +/-8%, those aren't manufacturing tolerances, those are the tolerances in their target weights, at least according to their customer service representatives, and they seem to aim for +8%.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:27 pm 
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2lo8 wrote:
That doesn't look like a budget build to me. Rival is negligibly heavier than Force if you can get 10 speed OCT crank arms instead of the Rival 1/22 crank arms and use the Force 1 cassette. I've also had the issue where Schwalbe One tires seem to come in on average, ~8% heavier than advertised, because apparently when Schwalbe advertises +/-8%, those aren't manufacturing tolerances, those are the tolerances in their target weights, at least according to their customer service representatives, and they seem to aim for +8%.



2lo8 wrote:
That doesn't look like a budget build to me. Rival is negligibly heavier than Force if you can get 10 speed OCT crank arms instead of the Rival 1/22 crank arms and use the Force 1 cassette. I've also had the issue where Schwalbe One tires seem to come in on average, ~8% heavier than advertised, because apparently when Schwalbe advertises +/-8%, those aren't manufacturing tolerances, those are the tolerances in their target weights, at least according to their customer service representatives, and they seem to aim for +8%.



Hi 2lo8

Thanks for the tip. I know Rival vs Force has not much of a difference in weight, but I have ridden a Rival kitted bike and I did not like the way the changing of the gears felt. I tried twice, two different shops (OK, both shops could have been lousy at setting those bikes up) and both felt a bit mushy compared to Force or Shimano/Campy.

On that same note, I do pay a lot of attention to aesthetics when it comes to bikes. That does sway me in buying bits and bobs. My ideal would have been to use Chorus 11 as a groupset because of the way it looks and feels. I like the "two finger" action to make the changes, but I don't like so much the price. I found Shimano's stuff to be a bit unexciting, even on a Dura Ace kitted bike. The logic of the changing gears is sound, but I wasn't liking the half-half movement. So, Sram Force or Red or Campy Chorus if I can find one second hand. Finding, in Europe, Force 22 second hand of the new gen is a bit hard.

There are a few Red shifters/FD/RD sales around from people switching to eTap that I can mix with Force brakes, cassette and get my size 165mm crankset on either Red or Force (Ideally Red to maximise the weight saving if I can also hunt my size crankset)

Also hunting around for a previous gen Record/Super Record just because they look ace.

I'd also be umping on an Aluminium bike if I can find one that looks like the Canyon AL SLX (Planet X RT-80 looks closest but the decal job is a bit meh)

EDIT: Forgot to add. The Schwalbe One is not a tyre I am placing here as a tyre too save weight, per se, but because it can be set up tubeless and it feels great. I also like Micheling Pro 4 Endurance, great rolling resistance and feel amazing with latex tubes but tubeless is the way to go.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:52 pm 
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2lo8 wrote:
That doesn't look like a budget build to me. Rival is negligibly heavier than Force if you can get 10 speed OCT crank arms instead of the Rival 1/22 crank arms and use the Force 1 cassette. I've also had the issue where Schwalbe One tires seem to come in on average, ~8% heavier than advertised, because apparently when Schwalbe advertises +/-8%, those aren't manufacturing tolerances, those are the tolerances in their target weights, at least according to their customer service representatives, and they seem to aim for +8%.



Hi 2lo8

Thanks for the tip. I know Rival vs Force has not much of a difference in weight, but I have ridden a Rival kitted bike and I did not like the way the changing of the gears felt. I tried twice, two different shops (OK, both shops could have been lousy at setting those bikes up) and both felt a bit mushy compared to Force or Shimano/Campy.

On that same note, I do pay a lot of attention to aesthetics when it comes to bikes. That does sway me in buying bits and bobs. My ideal would have been to use Chorus 11 as a groupset because of the way it looks and feels. I like the "two finger" action to make the changes, but I don't like so much the price. I found Shimano's stuff to be a bit unexciting, even on a Dura Ace kitted bike. The logic of the changing gears is sound, but I wasn't liking the half-half movement. So, Sram Force or Red or Campy Chorus if I can find one second hand. Finding, in Europe, Force 22 second hand of the new gen is a bit hard.

There are a few Red shifters/FD/RD sales around from people switching to eTap that I can mix with Force brakes, cassette and get my size 165mm crankset on either Red or Force (Ideally Red to maximise the weight saving if I can also hunt my size crankset)

Also hunting around for a previous gen Record/Super Record just because they look ace.

I'd also be umping on an Aluminium bike if I can find one that looks like the Canyon Ultimate AL SLX (Planet X RT-80 looks closest but the decal job is a bit meh)

EDIT: Forgot to add. The Schwalbe One is not a tyre I am placing here as a tyre too save weight, per se, but because it can be set up tubeless and it feels great. I also like Micheling Pro 4 Endurance, great rolling resistance and feel amazing with latex tubes but tubeless is the way to go.[/quote]

EDIT2: I noticed the Scott CR1 does not have internal cable routing. One of my single speeds also has external cable routing and I am not keen on that so....no CR1. PX/Hong-fu it may be then. Sadly, Canyon is out of stock on their Ultimate AL in xs....


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:59 pm 
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How olds the CR1 frame?
If its like this:
Image

Then the frames about 200g heavier than the older versions.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:05 pm 
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It is the 2013 model.

https://static.evanscycles.com/producti ... 9999-1.jpg

However, as I wrote above, not interested with the external cable routing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Posts: 296
I'm pretty sure Sram Rival and Force use the same shifter internals, the parts that change are the levers and paddles. The difference was likely due more to the set up, cabling, or something else, rather than the minor differences in the derailer or simply psychosomatic. The only thing I remember being distinctly bad was the 50t chainring shifting, which is a nonissue for you. In general Sram has a worse feel than Shimano or Campagnolo.

Your initial impressions of the shifters are going to be different than your impressions after you've ridden with them for a while. I've used them all. It's like clipless pedals, they might turn you off at first or you might find them awkward at first, but once operating them becomes second nature your impressions will change to notice things other than how intuitive they are.

If you're going to get Sram Red everything and Force brakes, you might as well spring for Red brakes or a third party ultralight brake. It's a little hard to say you have a budget bike if you're prioritizing aesthetics. Most of the parts have decent weights, but I see nothing really that tries to optimize cost or weight.

Before they made the change to powershift with the EPS style thumb button, I would have said Chorus all the way, but the EPS style thumb button helps compensate for the lack of ultrashift on Athena/Potenza/Centaur if you don't actually like dumping the cassette. I've accidentally overshifted a lit less than I intentionally used the multi shift function. A few quick taps is not a big problem. Arguably it's easier to get the right number of shifts than with ultrashift.

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Your one-stop source for information and reviews on cheap eBay bike junk.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Hi again,

Thanks for your time and replies!

I had a look at your build of 6.6 with full aluminium. Very nice! I also took a quick look at your blog and see that you are not afraid of cutting bits and bobs from some parts in order to save weight. I like that!

I have seen some "budget builds" here on WW that makes my budget (eur1500-2000) look like chips. I am exploring options but I don't have the time to build things on my own. I wanted to build my own SS wheelset (because of the rather simple nature of SS wheels) but in the end I didn't get on to do it because of time. I much rather do other things than modifying bits. I already feel that I spend a lot of time in cycling related things: riding, cleaning, maintenance.

I did think that the Rival set ups may have been a bit off. I will go to another bike shop and see if I can find another rival kitted bike in my size to give it another try. I don't think shimano feels worse than sram or campagnolo, it's the half-half movement of the paddles that I didn't like. Maybe I would need to get used to it, but I did enjoy the one movement/direction for one movement actuation of the derailleur. I found a Chorus groupset for eur950 (Ribble), which brings it close to the Sram Force 1 w/Long Cage and w/10-42 cassette combo price (eur40 more than the 909 quoted by TNC Hamburg) Apparently the new Potenza groupset is really good, but that's quite a bit heavier than Chorus, only 60eur cheaper than Force. The other alternative is to go with a standard Force 1 set up which will bring the price down from eur909 to eur720 becoming marginally lighter than Force 22 (unless you take the FD out and the small ring out of the Force 22 crankset)

On the pedals...it isn't about clipping in or out. It is about the shoes. I don't want to carry a pair of shoes to walk around. I like that I can ride for an hour and a half, get off, walk as usual, get my stuff done, ride back on, get off, walk as usual. Closest thing I almost bought were these bmx/mtb shoes that have a standard sole albeit with a cavity for the SPD cleats. Reviews of the shoes, however, were not favourable because they disintegrated rather quickly and were not cheap. So, platforms and standard shoes for me.

Let's imagine I go with Rival as a full groupset and the next possible frame (forget CR1) is around 1450 for the frameset...how would you go about kitting it out with the wheelet and finishing kit to end up with a light build?

Thanks,

EDIT: Planet X's Hongfu rebranded bikes have peaked my interest: RT-80 990+390g for ~eur540 delivered. RT-90 900+360g for ~eur640 delivered. I would prefer an Aluminium frame but I can't find Rose selling their Xeon RS frameset on it's own. That, apparently, has an estimated weight of 950g for a small (my size) Price wise, Rose might just be a tad more expensive.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:23 am 
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Planet X supposedly has a sub 1000g aluminum frame called the Galibier SL. Regarding shoes, they sell awkward clipless to flat converters (or SPD/flat pedals if you dare) so it's not a problem to ride with normal shoes but also have clipless pedals for when you just go out to ride. I wouldn't use anything but a beater to do chores with unless you're commuting to an office with a locked door. Any performance gains during riding are offset by having to worry about taking it with you everywhere, which is more awkward than walking with clipless pedals, or worrying about it getting stolen.

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Your one-stop source for information and reviews on cheap eBay bike junk.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:34 am 
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As you go walking in between cycling, and if you are not walking with your bike, you must not forget 3 pounds of theft resistant lock. Otherwise you have to take the bus home ;-)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Vieuxchnoque wrote:
As you go walking in between cycling, and if you are not walking with your bike, you must not forget 3 pounds of theft resistant lock. Otherwise you have to take the bus home ;-)


Hehe. Yes. I do have a couple of nice locks.


2lo8 wrote:
Planet X supposedly has a sub 1000g aluminum frame called the Galibier SL. Regarding shoes, they sell awkward clipless to flat converters (or SPD/flat pedals if you dare) so it's not a problem to ride with normal shoes but also have clipless pedals for when you just go out to ride. I wouldn't use anything but a beater to do chores with unless you're commuting to an office with a locked door. Any performance gains during riding are offset by having to worry about taking it with you everywhere, which is more awkward than walking with clipless pedals, or worrying about it getting stolen.


Ah yes, I came across the Galibier SL a few internet searches ago. Sadly, the sub 1kg frame is misleading marketing at best. A WW membeer weighted his frame and it came at a 1150g for a medium, I believe. I have just been offered a second hand Rose Xeon that tips the scale at 1700 including pressfit BB and headse (size 51) Fork is already cut. I like the look of that bike a lot.

I don't commute. I ride for fun, regularly. I do have a single speed for when I go about town not doing official business. This project is about being able to take longer rides, along the coast with the sun on my face, the breeze on my ears, and a condor flying on my side...also having a couple of gears for the hills and some for when I am tired. I don't think the condor can fly me and the bike home.

Something I have just come across (and I don't know why so late) is that I would need to spring about 80eur for a good PF BB remover and installer. Looking at the PX bikes, the RT-80 and RT-90 (now confirmed to be the same chinese carbon frames from Hong Fu I was initially drawn into to get this project going) have a BSA BB. That, in my books, if it makes sense to you all, saves me 80eur compared to other frames out there that need PF. I replace my BBs about twice a year, give or take, depending how much I ride in the gloomier months. Is PF more waterproof?

So, the new contenders are:

Xeon RS at 1700g (w/bb and headset) - 500eur (+80eur for BB tool)
RT-80 1380g - ~eur540 delivered
RT-90 1260g - ~eur640 delivered
Something else....?

Tempted by the Rose as it would be smack in the middle between the two PX bikes incl. the BB tool and it's aluminium. The price of the Bowman Palace R is a bit high, I think (GBP700). I mean, if Canyon charge eur800 for a Ultimate AL SLX that includes a stem and carbon seat post and it is a lighter frame than the Bowman.

Any thoughts on light wheelsets? If I go with Rival, I would have another eur200 to go a wheelset. Say, a Rival eur420 groupset+eur580 for the Rose is eur1000 done. I would have between 500-700 that can go into the wheelset to compensate for the Rose extra weight.

EDIT: Been looking into lighter tubular tyres (just to entertain the idea) and found that spanking new Vittoria Speed TLR. OMG! So fast...yet so fragile. Almost fell in love if not because of the frailty.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:59 pm 
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OK. Here are some numbers I crunched recently...thinking of going the Rose Xeon way....

Force 1 deal assembled from different shops on sale: eur850 for ~2,100g

Red 10 speed (shifters + crankset + chain) mix with Force 10 speed (RD, FD, cass, brakes): eur900 for ~1930g

Force 22 mix with 10 speed Red crankset (apparently it works): eur810 for ~1965g

Rival 22 mix and 10 speed Red crankset: eur820 for ~2040g (-eur whatever I can sell the Rival crankset for)

As above but with Red brake calipers: eur1000 for ~1912g

Force 22 groupset: eur790 for 2,166

Rose Xeon: eur580 - 1700g (incl. BB tool in price but not weight)
Red/Force mix: eur900 - 1930
DT Dwiss r24:eur200 - 1800
The rest: eur(Owned) - 1715

Totals: eur1,680 for 7,145g (Base Idea)

(BI) Add eur250 for Pro Lite Bortolas and take 300g off: eur1,930 for 6.845g

(BI) Take eur40 for RT-80 and take 70g off (assuming 100g BB and 150g Headeset): eur1640 for 7,075g

(BI) add eur60 for RT-90 and take 190g off (assume 100g BB and 150g headset): eur1,740 for ~6,955g

Biggest gram discount per eur comes from switching frames rather than lighter wheelset, although the lighter wheelset will make the bike feel nippier.

What do we think?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:41 pm 
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1150g is plenty light for an aluminum frame. It could come down to a difference in size and the weight of paint, which is often not included in advertised weights. It may surprise you, but glossy white paint can actually be quite heavy. Unless you have a verified weight for the Rose, you're likely to wind up disappointed.

You really don't need to spend 80 eur on a pro grade press, you might as well just spend a fraction of the price getting it done at a shop, of if you do it yourself, get a cheaper tool.

If you want to build a light weight wheelset, you can build up your choice of Kinlins on Bitex hubs with Sapim Lasers or CX-Rays which will come in around ~1400g depending on rim choice.

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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:41 pm 


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