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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:03 am
Posts: 507
Location: Madison, WI USA
I like it too. I suspect there may be an aero bar/stem in the works because this is 3T. On the other hand, 3T already makes several aero drop bars which would go quite well with this frame.

It sounds like a 1x12 SRAM HRD ETap group is in the works, including the required clutched rear derailleur. I'd love it if that were true!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am
Posts: 296
Zitter wrote:
Once you let your ego go that you need the same chainrings as Chris Froome and do the math, it makes sense. Yes you lose a little, but gain so much more.

I use a 48t big ring and I still disagree with you. I like my 1t shifting zones to come before ~24mph. I lose a lot and gain very little.

Zitter wrote:
Eddy Merckx would have cried tears of joy

Didn't you just say not to appeal to pros? I'm pretty sure I'm a lot weaker than eddy, hence the need for more gears.

Zitter wrote:
That give you a top end of ~53 x 12 and low end of ~34 x 28. I find it hard to believe most people on here would need more than that on the road

I could get the same with Shimano Tourney and I'm pretty sure Eddy would have cried tears of joy for that if all I cared about was range.

I like gears that give me the gears that I want when riding alone, not just paceline speeds, and I must be pretty weak or something, but I don't average 24mph+ when riding alone on a road bike. I like gears that give me those 1t jumps at the speeds I actually ride at, both solo and in groups. I like them lower than the speeds I normally ride at for headwinds too. I also like having climbing gears, and not having to switch out cassettes.

My 2x11 48/34 11-28 has a top end of ~53 x 12 and low end of ~34 x 28. It's also got a 1t zone that extends all the way down to 14mph instead of down to 24mph. It isn't needed that low, it's a side effect of trying to get more 1t in the big ring, but I prefer having them than not. Double shifts are rapid when they're only 1t jumps anyways.

Weak people need more gears than pros. This was painfully obvious when bikes were 9 speed and the race bikes came with doubles and the amateur road bikes came with triples. Weak people need lower climbing gears. Their red zone where they want 1t jumps for hard sustained efforts is going to be at lower speeds than pros. The only thing they don't need is sprint gears, but those are redundant with downhill gears and even weak people can reach speeds where it's better to tuck than pedal downhill. Eschewing 1x is not just because people want to emulate big pro chainrings. It's quite the silly argument.

Quote:
1x is lighter, more aero, more gear range, easier to use, less maintenance, less chance to drop your chain, cheaper to manufacture and build, aesthetically pleasing, and feasible now with 11 and soon 12 speeds in the rear to give the proper steps.

lighter - 1x wide range cassettes an rear clutch derailers are heavy, negating weight advantages.
aero - sure, in an area with relatively dirty airflow. I'd have to see something actually shown in the windtunnel.
gear range - no, just plain wrong, unless you're comparing 1x MTB to 2x road. Your proposed 53x12 to 34x28 doesn't match an actual 50x11 to 34x32.
easier to use - if you find chainrings challenging...
less maintenance - and if I really hated gears I could ride a fixie
chain drop - not as much of an issue when you aren't going off road and have your chainrings covered in mud
cheaper - it might be cheaper for them, it's not significantly cheaper for the consumer given the cost of RD and cassette

Quote:
Maybe mountain bikers aren't as dumb as you think

It's a possibility

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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:26 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:27 pm
Posts: 143
"On a clincher, changing the rim width changes the radius of the casing arc, but it doesn't change whether it's circular."

I suspect this isn't quite accurate. Carry the thought out to an extreme... if the rim is so wide that the tire can bare be mounted on it, it will be little more than a flat rubber/cloth membrane spanning the rim. As you widen the wheel to approach that entirely hypothetical state, the tire will gradually be less circular in section than shallow U shape.
At any useful state it would be rounded, but I don't know about "circular."

The shape of the casing is not the pertinent thing when it comes to aerodynamics, it's the shape of the tire, which could conform exactly to casing shape or could be quite different based on whatever is glued or vulcanized to it. From the years Iv e spent worrying like crazy about attached flow on sails and leading edge issues that trip the flow, there may be something to the idea that Conti gets an advantage from tread, but... the advantage seems to be pretty large for it to be mainly the surface texture of the tire, it seems more likely to be tire shape...
Michelins and vittorias have done pretty badly in the tunnel and if it were simply a matter of molding in more texture they and others would fix it quickly...

But you've posted some interesting and useful stuff, I want to go back and read through the stuff you point to... Thanks for a thoughtful post.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:53 am
Posts: 699
This looks like the old S5 and both of them remind me of a wheel chair aesthetically.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:12 pm
Posts: 538
Location: Laguna Niguel
2lo8, you're obviously not the target consumer then, or maybe you just need to try it and be educated. This is a bike for pros and amateus alike, it has all the advantages a pro bike needs and all the comfort and versatility and free speed a slow amateur wants.

"lighter - 1x wide range cassettes and rear clutch derailers are heavy, negating weight advantages."

Depends which brand/quality you're buying, but you can also make the frame lighter by not having to make concessions for a FD i.e. cable ports, shifter, housing, cables, reinforced areas

"aero - sure, in an area with relatively dirty airflow. I'd have to see something actually shown in the windtunnel."

The BB is an area of extremely dirty air flow, but I'm sure you know more than Gerard. FD, chainring, hanger, bottles, legs all in that small area disrupting flow. Flow is best if it goes straight through instead of around the legs

"gear range - no, just plain wrong, unless you're comparing 1x MTB to 2x road. Your proposed 53x12 to 34x28 doesn't match an actual 50x11 to 34x32."

E.13 makes a 9-46 cassette with 500+% gear range, impossible on a 2x. That's the beauty of 1x, you can tailor your gearing to your terrain instead of having 2x overlap inefficiency and few options to expand

"easier to use - if you find chainrings challenging..."

Which is the majority of the public riding bikes. You don't go to a lawyer and then he laughs at you for not knowing the law. FD's are very confusing for new riders and even experienced riders alike.

"less maintenance - and if I really hated gears I could ride a fixie"

Now you're being facetious. FD's are much more work than RD's or any other part of the drive train.

"chain drop - not as much of an issue when you aren't going off road and have your chainrings covered in mud"

I know of a guy who lost a small race called the Tour de France because he couldn't work his FD and dropped his chain

"cheaper - it might be cheaper for them, it's not significantly cheaper for the consumer given the cost of RD and cassette"

Cheaper frame development since the area doesn't have to be reinforced and optimised to handle the FD load, fewer parts (shifters are some of the most expensive components)

People are already using purpose built bikes, is this such a stretch? Tony Martin has a 1x TT bike for some occasions, a special aero breakaway bike, a climbing bike, etc.. Adjusting your gearing to your terrain is nothing new also, just different now. This is literally the ideal Paris-Roubaix bike too if you think about it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm
Posts: 3326
Zitter wrote:
E.13 makes a 9-46 cassette with 500+% gear range, impossible on a 2x. That's the beauty of 1x, you can tailor your gearing to your terrain instead of having 2x overlap inefficiency

Give me 2x overlap anyday vs a cassette which has 13% to 17% jumps throughout it's entire range! Some of the jumps on an 11-32 (max 13%) are already noticeably suboptimal for cadence control.

Quote:
I know of a guy who lost a small race called the Tour de France because he couldn't work his FD and dropped his chain

Sure, but he was running a groupset whose front shifting was notoriously poor at the time, let alone by todays standards.

Are front mechs perfect? Hell no. On the road, am I happier dealing with their extremely rare issues than riding around massive ratio steps every tme I get on the bike? Hell yes.

YMMV.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am
Posts: 296
Zitter wrote:
2lo8, you're obviously not the target consumer then. This is a bike for pros and amateus alike, it has all the advantages a pro bike needs and all the comfort and versatility and free speed a slow amateur wants.

Haven't seen too many pros on these. Pretty sure pros get their bikes because of their sponsors. Could be wrong about that. Of course I'm not the target consumer, but of course there's people who snark about how this is so new and great and so much better than the norm. "We didn't need 8 speed cassettes" kind of BS.

Quote:
Depends which brand/quality you're buying, but you can also make the frame lighter by not having to make concessions for a FD

Are you seriously implying the weight savings would be anything but negligible? It's not the simple removal of parts. Other parts have to be made heavier.

Quote:
The BB is an area of extremely dirty air flow, but I'm sure you know more than Gerard

I just said the BB has dirty airflow, so how exactly do you think you're contradicting me? I said you'd have to prove that 1x would make any sort of signifigant difference in the wind tunnel or real life.

Quote:
E.13 makes a 9-46 cassette with 500+% gear range, impossible on a 2x

I just said you'd have to compare MTB 1x to road 2x, and then you go ahead and compare MTB 1x to road 2x, which has even more awful spacing than your proposed road cassette. You're grasping at straws here. There's a reason we don't use MTB gearing on road bikes.

Quote:
Which is the majority of the public riding bikes, you don't go to a lawyer and then he laughs at you for not knowing the law. FD's are very confusing for new riders

Yes, clearly people dumping this kind of cash on carbon bikes with 1x11 or 1x12 groupsets are new riders who don't know how shifting works. Probably an arrogant lawyer with too much money. I might agree if you were talking about the 1x7 Schwinn Admiral sold at Walmart.

Quote:
Now you're being facetious. FD's are much more work than RD's or any other part of the drive train.

What exactly do you do to "maintain" a FD besides rarely adjusting the barrel adjuster, and maybe add a few drops of lube to the pivots? Are you sure you're not the one being facetious? Set up might be harder, but maintenance? Is this some sort of cruel joke? You don't even have to adjust for indexing like a RD.

Quote:
I know a guy who lost a small race called the Tour de France because he couldn't work his FD and dropped his chain

And it happens rarely, everyone runs chain catchers now, and you keep vacillating between appealing to pro behavior, and not appealing to pro behavior. It's not the end of my career if I drop a chain once a blue moon.

Quote:
Cheaper frame development since the area doesn't have to be reinforced and optimised to handle the FD load, fewer parts (shifters are some of the most expensive components)

Doesn't matter to me if this doesn't translate into cheaper prices in the real world and I'm just paying more for less.

Quote:
People are already using purpose built bikes, is this such a stretch? Tony Martin has a 1x TT bike for some occasions, a special aero breakaway bike, a climbing bike, etc.. Adjusting your gearing to your terrain is nothing new also, just different now.

No, that's not a stretch, the issue if you pretending like 1x and this are better in general, how you don't really need a double, etc. not claiming it's a niche bike with a specific purpose. You weren't making the argument that this was the ideal cobbles race bike.

Quote:
Adjusting your gearing to your terrain is nothing new also, just different now.

Yes, I do that by pressing little levers, while riding even, instead of buying multiple 1x cassettes and chainrings and chains and swapping them as needed. So much simpler.

So what I got from all this is this is the niche bike for rich lawyers named Fred who have never ridden a bike before and don't know how to use a front shifters, using a barrel adjuster is too hard for the front (but not the rear), with enough money to to buy this, but are strong like pros, weight weenie, aero weenie, hates shifting and likes big gear gaps, is hedging his career on a bike race and needs a specialized bike because he is planning on racing cobbles but also will change his cassette and chainrings to match his terrain.

Is that the target consumer?

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Last edited by 2lo8 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:12 pm
Posts: 538
Location: Laguna Niguel
Easy, don't buy one then. It wasn't designed to be for everyone, but 10 years down the road when we're doing 1x14 or whatever maybe you'll change your mind. Or maybe not, some people still ride triples.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am
Posts: 296
I still ride triples.

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Your one-stop source for information and reviews on cheap eBay bike junk.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:12 pm
Posts: 538
Location: Laguna Niguel
Case in point, not the target audience. There's always Trek or Specialized or whathaveyou. Can't have Ferrari without Volvo


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am
Posts: 296
Yes, the target audience is people who have lots of money to spend on bikes but don't know how to use shifters according to you. Or Freds.

That or people who need a specialized n+1 bike for racing on cobbles.

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Your one-stop source for information and reviews on cheap eBay bike junk.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:12 pm
Posts: 538
Location: Laguna Niguel
It's not just about 1x. It's also completely optimized for disc and 25-30mm tires. Who doesn't want easy shifting, free speed, comfort, and stopping power? It's a bike built with the future in mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am
Posts: 296
Yet they chose to make it 1x specific, which mind you, seemed to be a major plus for you. "you lose a little, but gain so much more" There's other bikes I can buy with disc brakes and clearance for wide tires. A lot of them. It's hardly special in that regard.

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[2lo8.wordpress.com]
Your one-stop source for information and reviews on cheap eBay bike junk.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:12 pm
Posts: 538
Location: Laguna Niguel
Sub 1000 gram aero disc frame that fits 30mm tires, not many of those out there I'm aware of. I used to be vehemently anti 1x road until I saw the math and reasoning (and used it myself).


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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:12 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:32 am
Posts: 296
Yes, because you only use 1t gaps above ~24mph according to your impeccable math.

At least you went from acting like it and 1x was a great all rounder for almost everyone to it now being a specialized niche bike for people that need a specific combination of features, which is what it is.

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[2lo8.wordpress.com]
Your one-stop source for information and reviews on cheap eBay bike junk.


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