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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Posts: 1429
kgt wrote:
Neither all lugged frames are the same nor all monocoques. Look produces lugged and monocoques since... always.
The fact is that ride quality does not matter that much to most consumers nowadays. They just want to ride whatever else rides or what they see on tv.


Yes certainly there are always good & bad examples of any technology/build process


Yes also as you say Look made monobloc frames way back when too. KG196 in 1990
Although the ones ridden by teams in stages other than a TT tended to ride the lugged frames.

About consumers just wanting what their hero's ride on TV etc today....
I think it was always that way....

None of us were born with an ability to discern a good ride from a plain ride
I know I liked what I saw Sean Kelly, Stephen Roche ride or Pedro Delgado etc. ride :wink:

But through the years having owned various bikes one starts to know what they like best in a ride
which many times does not match what they see on TV
Deciding what we like in bike frames takes time & unfortunately $$$ :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Location: Athens, Greece
I totally agree.
I also lusted after Rominger's Colnago, Indurain's Pinarello or Pantani's Bianchi when I was a teenager. Nothing wrong with that.
However, as you say, having owned many bikes and ridden many thousands of kms over the years you start disceringn a great ride from a good ride and a top manufacturing quality from an "everything seems ok" one. IMO a really experienced rider has usually a strong opinion about what suits him and what not, what he likes in a frame and what he does not etc. etc. no matter what the marketing trends are.

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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:10 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:13 pm 
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Posts: 1429
kgt wrote:
I totally agree.
However, as you say, having owned many bikes and ridden many thousands of kms over the years you start discerning a great ride from a good ride and a top manufacturing quality from an "everything seems ok" one. IMO a really experienced rider has usually a strong opinion about what suits him and what not, what he likes in a frame and what he does not etc. etc. no matter what the marketing trends are.


Exactly & looking back it really is/was a nice experience/journey learning
& being excited by the things we discovered through those rides :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Quote:
over the years you start disceringn a great ride from a good ride and a top manufacturing quality from an "everything seems ok" one.



It took me 5 or 6 carbon frames to start feeling the differences between a good and great frame. And I'm only talking about the subtle feel. The ride of my C59 is just sublime compared to some other bikes I had. I don't think it makes one faster but it's more pleasurable to ride.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm
Posts: 106
Personally I thought the Look frames were fantastic with the relaxed geometry and relatively long wheelbase making for such a stable ride. I loved my KG261 so much it took me 14 years to get round to buying a new best bike. If it wasn't for Look making such ugly looking frames in recent years I would have bought one without hesitation. But otherwise I would never have ended up buying my C60. So it's quite sad but that's the French with their strange styling ways that sometimes go completely wrong. They've done it plenty of times with car designs such as Renault with the Megane and Avantime but I wish they'd go back to making the frames they were renowned for. My KG261 lives on though as it's my new winter bike.
Original 11 speed super record throughout apart from Quarq sram red power meter, Shamal ultra wheels, I used to have a look ergopost but that split and the only 25mm I could find was the Thompson, and just put deda superzero bars and stem which I have to say I don't like! Just can't quite get the hoods up high enough before the bar expands to the aero tops. The top of the bars is really nice though.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:42 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:31 am
Posts: 26
I am still very happy with my daily ride (585) and climbing bike (595 ultra)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:59 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
Same thing happened to Time. The 585 Ultra and RXR are two frames I will probably always want, maybe toss an EPQ or C50 in that group as well.


agreed.



For a company whose name references aesthetics (jk) , the recent look models are an abomination sans track frame.

in regards to TIME , the RXRS is probably one of the best 5 bikes in my mind of all time. ALL TIME (pun intended)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 6:36 pm
Posts: 408
Location: France
Years ago every bike shop in France was selling Look and Time, but today the few shops left are selling mostly american brands ...
Time is a better brand, focusing more on quality.
Look can make good frames like 585, 595 and 695 but they focus more on marketing and selling.
They could easily make their pedals and cleats better and longer lasting, but they are not interested in it as long as the sales are good.
They make innovations for the sake of it and to appear as a leading brand, but they are not.
They sponsor many nations on the track only to get visibility.
It probably hurts a lot to have for years poor results with sponsored teams like Cofidis and now Fortuneo.
Too bad, they had some advance years ago but they rested on their laurels.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Location: South Florida
I have owned a LOOK 595 Ultra with Campagnolo Record 10 Sp and a TIME RXR with 11sp Campagnolo SR for man years now. The Time is far more comfortable for longer rides, but twitchy on descends and curves. The look is far stiffer for climbing, but beats my butt on longer rides although it goes like it is on rails. Love them both for different reasons. Not a single other bikes, including the newer versions of both brands, have come even close to get me to buy another bike. The Colnago C60 has come a very distant second, but hasn't moved me to pull the trigger.

I may upgrade the LOOK to SR 11 sp soon just to say I did something to it, but frankly, the 10 sp Record is just as smooth as the beware 11 sp.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Location: Athens, Greece
Comparing Time to Look in terms of manufacturing does not make sense... Time frames are 100% made in France and the only manufacturer (except Giant) that weaves its own carbon. They use exclusively RTM and add vectran and other fibers to finely tune the ride characteristics. Certainly a higher quality frame than a Look or any other carbon frame whatsoever.
Look just uses standard prepeg carbon sheets like everyone else and its frames are made abroad (Morocco?, China?).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:18 am 
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kgt wrote:
Comparing Time to Look in terms of manufacturing does not make sense... Time frames are 100% made in France and the only manufacturer (except Giant) that weaves its own carbon. They use exclusively RTM and add vectran and other fibers to finely tune the ride characteristics. Certainly a higher quality frame than a Look or any other carbon frame whatsoever.
Look just uses standard prepeg carbon sheets like everyone else and its frames are made abroad (Morocco?, China?).


That is true about present day Look, but not about Look when they were in their prime. That is part of the reason Look has gone downhill the last few years and why you see many people in this thread questioning Look's direction. Look lost its direction and calling when they stopped producing the 585 and 595.

However the 585 and 595 frames were made in France. Nevers, France to be specific. When they were building the 585 and 595, Look made their own carbon (HR, HM, and VHM). Look carbon was 100% Look carbon. They did not out source production. At one point, they did open up a facility in Tunisia to help with some of the lower end frames that they sold.

You can read Pez Cycling's visit to the Nevers, France facility back in 2007 here:
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/technspec ... Ts3Y1KZNE4

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm
Posts: 106
kxlight wrote:
I am still very happy with my daily ride (585) and climbing bike (595 ultra)

Image


These are two beautiful frames and I'd love to be able to buy the current updated version of those. But where Colnago have slowly evolved the C50 to C59 to now the C60 Look have gone all crazy with the 795 style. The 695 that came before it to me has the same generic styling of a standard open mould Chinese frame. They need to go back to a traditional style (tubes and lugs) and sponsor a top end world tour team. It's how Trek, Canyon, BMC etc have gained market share. I for one don't want to ride their frames I like something that feels less mass produced. Surely Look make plenty of money from pedal sales that they could invest enough into the frame business and get back towards where they were. Use the Made in France label just how Colnago use that for the C60 and make a high quality product, I'm sure the current range is high quality, but one that doesn't polarise opinions. Either hate them or indifferent to them. Anything that does that is normally doomed to failure and that's why their frames are disappearing. The top end frames being sold with the Zed chainset doesn't help but perhaps there is hope with the recent collaboration with SRM power meter. Another company that's in danger of being left behind.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am
Posts: 117
Shame LOOK didnt continue development - i ve a blk/wht 585 and red Cofidis 595 and both are sublime but "time" waits for no man and even far cheaper mass produced bikes have caught up.
i recently hired a Macario Prothos - s shimano spanish importers branded bike, the 6800 build c/w c35 wheels costs less than i paid for the 595 frame alone and its every bit as good if not better than the 595 let alone the 585.

Look seem to concentrate on gimmicks, that integrated crank, the weird 795 and the even weirder stem, non of which is an improvement on whats already out there.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:51 pm
Posts: 248
Location: London
Not quite sure how they've managed to get it so right on the track and so wrong on the road.


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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:38 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Location: Athens, Greece
53x12 wrote:
That is true about present day Look, but not about Look when they were in their prime. That is part of the reason Look has gone downhill the last few years and why you see many people in this thread questioning Look's direction. Look lost its direction and calling when they stopped producing the 585 and 595.

However the 585 and 595 frames were made in France. Nevers, France to be specific. When they were building the 585 and 595, Look made their own carbon (HR, HM, and VHM). Look carbon was 100% Look carbon.


Not to be misunderstood I strongly believe that Look was and still is a great company. But in comparison to Time it is a lesser quality product, no doubt about that. Weaving your own carbon is not the same as using prepeg and the made in France Looks are, unfortunately, a rather old story...

_________________
My 6536gr TIME Skylon
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