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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:48 am 
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Posts: 23
Hey guys,

I got interested in textreme carbon and its uses in bike industry then realised there are industry partners who are mentioned in
Oxeon's website and other manufacturers "claiming" they use textreme but unlike Oxeon's industry partners (Felt, Pro, Berria, Giro and others)
They seem to either use their own logo or does not hold registered trademark stuck to it.
What startles me more is that those known brands cover their website with ® symbol every time they need to mention "TeXtreme" while
others adding doubt with dodgy description of textreme on their website.
I am not too sure whether the industry wants Spread-Tow carbon to be called in generalised term or they did not pay enough
to advertise it but I think if textreme is 10 times more expensive then UD even on eBay then there's something going on...


Image

Cello Reference M1 (Dodgy logo: frame weight 935g)

Image

Kemo KE-R8 5KS (This was 2014 and they no longer have textreme logo on their frame: 760g)

Image

Swift Carbon Ultravox SSL (No registered trademark: ±900g

Felt's FR1 FRD is claimed at 684g, AR FRD proven at 895g

Does anyone know whether these are real or fake?


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Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:48 am 


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:33 pm 
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Location: Lower Saxony - Germany
Felt's weight claims seem to be right:

Image

And they use the trademark logo:

Image

Vial Evo without branding:

Image

:noidea:

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:12 pm 
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This type of carbon cloth, regardless of who makes it, is generally not some sort of ultimate for bike construction. You are adding at least a small amount of weight for a benefit that is aesthetic in nature.
Unidirectional for the entire frame is the right way to get the absolute most out of the material. There are probably few if any places on a bike where you need half the stiffness of the cloth going in one direction and half going on load path 90 degrees to that.
I'm sure this is pretty thin material so its probably not adding a huge about, but seriously it mainly makes sense as an aesthetic layer.
It adds some strength to a bike. Not a full layer of uni's worth but sure, more than a coat of paint that it really is replacing.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:14 am 
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Posts: 420
thumper88 wrote:
This type of carbon cloth, regardless of who makes it, is generally not some sort of ultimate for bike construction. You are adding at least a small amount of weight for a benefit that is aesthetic in nature.
Unidirectional for the entire frame is the right way to get the absolute most out of the material. There are probably few if any places on a bike where you need half the stiffness of the cloth going in one direction and half going on load path 90 degrees to that.


Yeah, that is my understanding too. Textreme is advantageous in terms of strength/weight when compared to another 90 degree cloth (like 3k) for the reasons that they say, which is that the fewer bends back and forth in the weave lead to a straighter, shorter, fiber path, but that doesn't change the fact that unidirectional allows a more precise usage of material than either woven variety. One exception might be impact strength, as you often see it suggested that 3k is superior in this dept as a surface layer, but even still, none of the talk of how to improve the crashworthiness of carbon frames is revolving around the use of more 3k. Instead they are talking about using various more plastic fibres that can hold on even when carbon cracks.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:18 am 
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thumper88 wrote:
This type of carbon cloth, regardless of who makes it, is generally not some sort of ultimate for bike construction. You are adding at least a small amount of weight for a benefit that is aesthetic in nature.
Unidirectional for the entire frame is the right way to get the absolute most out of the material. There are probably few if any places on a bike where you need half the stiffness of the cloth going in one direction and half going on load path 90 degrees to that.
I'm sure this is pretty thin material so its probably not adding a huge about, but seriously it mainly makes sense as an aesthetic layer.
It adds some strength to a bike. Not a full layer of uni's worth but sure, more than a coat of paint that it really is replacing.


That is incorrect to state that TeXtreme is just aesthetic in nature.

https://youtu.be/Hmd8KJh_k0M

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:38 am 
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I didn't write "just aesthetic." I wrote "mainly" and I was quite clear that the main reason to use it is aesthetic, but not the only reason.


Last edited by Frankie - B on Tue May 30, 2017 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
removed the quote.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 2:55 pm 
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You stated that the use of TeXtreme is a small amount of weight for the end benefit being aesthetic in nature. That is wrong as its real benefit isn't aesthetics as aesthetics is very dependent on person to person. The main purpose of TeXtreme is performance characteristics while also gaining weight savings.

What you get with TeXtreme is spread tow and thin ply benefits of its design. Yes, TeXtreme is used as the outer most layer, but that is because of its impact resistance and ability to drape over curved surfaces compared to UD. TeXtreme is superior in both of those aspects, while also being lighter. Saving weight with two layers of TeXtreme (one on the inside of the frame and the outer layer) lets companies like Felt to build a lighter (have to use less carbon fiber elsewhere on the frame), stiffer and more impact resistant frame than their competitors.

Image

The design of Oxeon's TeXtreme carbon fiber is denser, stiffer, and a stronger interlace of carbon fibers with the wider and flatter orientation of their layup. With those flatter and wider fibers, it makes the carbon stiffer as you have more carbon fiber and less resin. You are basically getting the strength and toughness of two layers of unidirectional carbon in a single layer of TeXtreme @ the same weight as one of those unidirectional layers due to that spread tow design.

This isn't just some fancy looking outer layer for looks and minimal performance benefit. It is the complete opposite. It is performance first and the looks just come along for the ride and are hit or miss depending on if the person likes the way the TeXtreme fiber looks. This isn't some method to skip out on needing to paint the frames. The performance benefit is truly there.

Go to Oxeon's TeXtreme website to learn more, as it appears your understanding is off a bit regarding what the purpose and benefit of TeXtreme is for bike frames. http://www.textreme.com

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"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:22 am 
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Posts: 143
It simply isn't as strong as an equivalent amount of carbon unidirectional run properly along load paths rather than 90-degree angles which is essentially random directions most anywhere on a bike frame.
No matter how the marketing words are moved around, that is the simple, undeniable fact.
I don't see anything like this on the bikes of the companies that spend the most on R&D, like Specialized, Trek, Pinarello etc
I didn't see anything remotely like this in the BMW-Oracle trimaran when I was in their fabrication shop, and I'm pretty sure Larry Ellison would buy the company with if there was any advantage to it for crucial parts.
If this is some sort of attempt at guerrilla marketing, it's kind of heavy-handed.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:44 am 
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Posts: 23
thumper88 wrote:
It simply isn't as strong as an equivalent amount of carbon unidirectional run properly along load paths rather than 90-degree angles which is essentially random directions most anywhere on a bike frame.
No matter how the marketing words are moved around, that is the simple, undeniable fact.
I don't see anything like this on the bikes of the companies that spend the most on R&D, like Specialized, Trek, Pinarello etc
I didn't see anything remotely like this in the BMW-Oracle trimaran when I was in their fabrication shop, and I'm pretty sure Larry Ellison would buy the company with if there was any advantage to it for crucial parts.
If this is some sort of attempt at guerrilla marketing, it's kind of heavy-handed.


I am not too sure if sail mast is cruicial enough for you but they use textreme through and through on their Americas's cup boat.

90 degrees Textreme is literally UD 15k in both direction with less glue making it lighter and stronger against shear. What is not to like about the material except the price?


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm
Posts: 3337
thumper88 wrote:
I didn't see anything remotely like this in the BMW-Oracle trimaran when I was in their fabrication shop, and I'm pretty sure Larry Ellison would buy the company with if there was any advantage to it for crucial parts.


http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/spread-tow-carbon-fabrics-reduce-mass-in-americas-cup-catamaran


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Posts: 143
OK, fair enough. Maybe Larry DID buy the company. But...Here's some of the typical wording from the link:
"A very thin sandwich laminate of TeXtreme and lightweight foam core delivered aerodynamic performance, with just enough rigidity to maintain its aerodynamic shape."

Basically that is a fairing where they needed an extremely thin layer to hold a shape. This is NOT the structural part of the boat or the mast. It's simply misleading to say this is relevant to a bike frame. The masts, hulls and beans were all unidirectional... not woven.

Seriously, no one in the bike world is really calling out for this stuff, let alone feeling outrage that someone counterfeited it. It's just not important. I'm sure it doesn't hurt frame construction, but it doesn't really help it either or the big boys would be all over some version of it.

And the diagram comparing it to other woven cloth? Yes, I absolutely believe it has advantages over standard weave. No question. But most bikes just don't USE woven carbon so that diagram is irrelevant..


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:32 pm 
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thumper88, you don't know what you are talking about. What a bunch of nonsense you have cluttered this thread with. Bunch of BS.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Location: On the bike
thumper88 wrote:
It simply isn't as strong as an equivalent amount of carbon unidirectional run properly along load paths rather than 90-degree angles which is essentially random directions most anywhere on a bike frame.
No matter how the marketing words are moved around, that is the simple, undeniable fact.
I don't see anything like this on the bikes of the companies that spend the most on R&D, like Specialized, Trek, Pinarello etc
I didn't see anything remotely like this in the BMW-Oracle trimaran when I was in their fabrication shop, and I'm pretty sure Larry Ellison would buy the company with if there was any advantage to it for crucial parts.
If this is some sort of attempt at guerrilla marketing, it's kind of heavy-handed.


Thanks again for showing your ignorance on this subject. Before you further embarrass yourself by posting in this thread, thinking you know what you are talking about, go online and spend 15-20 minutes researching and reading about:

1. spread tow
2. thin ply

and their relationship in carbon fiber composites. Since you come across as the lazy type, I will provide you with some resources to get you started.

http://www.thinplytechnology.com
http://www.compositesworld.com/news/nor ... adal-watch
https://gernitex.com/product/spread-tow ... er-fabric/

Since I doubt you will even spend time researching how you are incorrect with your understanding, I will provide it right here in this thread for you to read.

Quote:
Lighter. Spread tow carbon fiber fabrics are woven from fiber tows that are spread into thin tapes. Tape area density is inversely proportional to spreading width. Whereas the lightest traditional carbon fiber fabrics weight 90 g/m2, spread tow fabrics can achieve densities as low as 40 g/m2.

Straighter fibers. Compared with traditional reinforcement fabrics, spread tow fabrics have practically straight carbon fibers. Straight fibers have a higher rigidity in tension than undulated fibers and result in a stiffer fabric. Since their buckling is not initiated, straight fibers also have a better resistance to compressive stress.

Higher fiber-to-matrix ratio. Since spread tow carbon fiber fabrics are extremely flat, they require less resin than traditional fabrics to be impregnated. This results in composites with a higher fiber-to-matrix volume ratio and overall better mechanical performances.

Because they have practically straight fibers and a woven structure, spread tow carbon fiber fabrics combine the stiffness of non-crimp laminates and the reduced delamination risks of woven fabrics.

https://gernitex.com/product/spread-tow ... er-fabric/

Plenty of other manufacturers outside of Felt use TeXtreme for their products:

Field Hockey:
Image

Kayaks:
Image

Canoes:
Image

Formula 1:
Image

Tennis rackets:
Image

Golf clubs:
Image

Cycling helmets:
Image

Bike wheels:
Image

Image

Motorcycle helmets:
Image

Personal watercraft:
Image

Oracle Team USA has been using it since 2013:
Image


To be using the argument that since Specialized, Trek, Pinarello...etc. don't use it it must not be good is a logical fallacy on your part. Just because Kestrel was the first company to make an all carbon fiber frame in 1986 (Kestrel 4000) before anyone else was using it, doesn't mean carbon fiber didn't have any advantages since none of the big names were using it. Can't believe you are actually trying to use that kind of logic to make a point.

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"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:15 pm 
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thumper88 wrote:
OK, fair enough. Maybe Larry DID buy the company. But...Here's some of the typical wording from the link:
"A very thin sandwich laminate of TeXtreme and lightweight foam core delivered aerodynamic performance, with just enough rigidity to maintain its aerodynamic shape."

Basically that is a fairing where they needed an extremely thin layer to hold a shape. This is NOT the structural part of the boat or the mast. It's simply misleading to say this is relevant to a bike frame. The masts, hulls and beans were all unidirectional... not woven.

Seriously, no one in the bike world is really calling out for this stuff, let alone feeling outrage that someone counterfeited it. It's just not important. I'm sure it doesn't hurt frame construction, but it doesn't really help it either or the big boys would be all over some version of it.

And the diagram comparing it to other woven cloth? Yes, I absolutely believe it has advantages over standard weave. No question. But most bikes just don't USE woven carbon so that diagram is irrelevant..


1. Larry Ellison did not buy Oxeon, the creator and maker of TeXtreme.

2. No carbon fiber composite user uses just one type of carbon fiber layup in their protocol. They use different types of carbon fiber, in different areas, as the design calls for it. Using it to make a whole bike frame out of it makes zero sense, that is why no one is doing it. If you really wanted to just use TeXtreme you could, but you wouldn't want to because there are certain areas of a frame where you want more stiffness, or strength, or compliance in one particular direction or another. But TeXtreme has its purpose and use not only in cycling but in other sports as well.

Regarding Oracle Team USA, TeXtreme allowed them to save weight on their boat + also reduce layup time = cost savings.

Quote:
The ORACLE TEAM USA America’s Cup catamarans are built in New Zealand by Core Builders Composites. Tim Smyth, General Manager of Core Builders commented, “With TeXtreme® we achieve benefits from a mechanical standpoint, in terms of strength and stiffness, as well as from a manufacturing perspective. As a result of using the TeXtreme® carbon fiber fabrics, we have managed to considerably reduce the lay-up time and realize significant cost savings. At the same time, the materials have made it possible for us to reduce the overall weight of the boats.”

ORACLE TEAM USA is currently training and testing on AC45S boats in Bermuda, and applying that knowledge to the development of their America’s Cup Class yacht to be raced in 2017. A key component in the process has become to precisely optimize the weight and design of the yacht in order to achieve proper foiling. The choice of materials, predominantly carbon fiber composites, have a direct impact on a boat’s performance.

In addition to the novel TeXtreme® materials presence in the America’s Cup, the company’s innovative products are widely used in the Formula 1, NASCAR, Le Mans and Indy Car auto racing circuits; in the manufacture of bicycles; ice hockey, golf and tennis equipment; surfboards, rowing shells and canoes; skis and snowboards – and in various industrial and advanced aerospace applications.

“We’re delighted that TeXtreme® continues to be the number one choice among so many professionals when it comes to weight reduction and improved mechanical performance. We aim to keep ORACLE TEAM USA as competitive as possible by remaining at the forefront of composite material development, helping to provide the team with the best possible conditions to win another title,” says Andreas Martsman, VP of Marketing & Sales at Oxeon.

Products reinforced with TeXtreme® on average benefit from a 20% overall reduction in weight in comparison to other carbon fiber materials on the market – without sacrificing strength or rigidity. As an alternative to materials such as aluminum or steel, the potential weight savings is even greater.

“We compared countless different composite reinforcements and considering all aspects such as cost, potential weight savings and mechanical properties, TeXtreme® was the obvious choice,” concludes Core Builders’ Tim Smyth.

http://oracle-team-usa.americascup.com/ ... title.html

_________________
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."


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Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:15 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:41 pm 
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Posts: 10
There's also interesting discussion of Textreme here (with actual responses in the comments from an Oxeon rep):

Article


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