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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:44 pm
Posts: 42
Lewn777 wrote:
fogman wrote:
I like the idea of disc brakes as an option and am glad that Campagnolo has finally released their version. However, I am also hoping that rim brakes are not completely replaced by disc brakes. I believe disc brakes and rim brakes should coexist moving forward. Each system has certain benefits and disadvantages for different applications. The consumer should have the choice of which system they prefer and not be "forced" into disc brakes by the manufacturers.

My suspicion is that the industry want the whole pro peloton on disks by 2020. Then you'll look at your bike and will feel that it's old style and not cutting edge. So the pros will be forced, but the masses coerced. The speed at which manufacturers can jump on a bandwagon is amazing, they are terrified of being left behind. Sure, there will probably always be niche manufacturers making rim bikes, but a trip to a Trek, Giant or Spec store will probably only have disk options in a few years.

I have no real problem with that if they quit tinkering around and stay with some kind of universal disk brake standard for 5-10 years. But I suspect it will open the floodgates for all sorts of new marginal gain improvements that mostly will end in dead ends, garbage and extra expense.

-Rotor size 100, 140, 160?
-Centerlock, 4 bolt, 6 bolt or something new?
-Axles? 10mm, 12mm, 15mm? What bolting system?


Agree with your view on the industry and pro peloton transition.

With the technical details. I think for next couple of years (at least) its pretty much settled. 12mm thru axles and 160mm front and 140 mm rear rotor in pro peloton.

We can expect some interesting stuff in brake calipers integration with fork and rear dropout to make it more seamless and aerodynamic. But that probably wont come very soon. Unless there will be some push for rotor covers which could speed up the process..

The 6 bolt and centerlock will be certainly interesting too see which one Will win the battle. On MTB side its pretty much everything on 6 bolt system probably due to cheaper manufacturing. On road side its the opposite for now. Kinda hope the Centerlock system will win in the long run since its a better design and its easier to work with.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:12 pm
Posts: 32
Lewn777 wrote:
fogman wrote:
I like the idea of disc brakes as an option and am glad that Campagnolo has finally released their version. However, I am also hoping that rim brakes are not completely replaced by disc brakes. I believe disc brakes and rim brakes should coexist moving forward. Each system has certain benefits and disadvantages for different applications. The consumer should have the choice of which system they prefer and not be "forced" into disc brakes by the manufacturers.

My suspicion is that the industry want the whole pro peloton on disks by 2020. Then you'll look at your bike and will feel that it's old style and not cutting edge. So the pros will be forced, but the masses coerced. The speed at which manufacturers can jump on a bandwagon is amazing, they are terrified of being left behind. Sure, there will probably always be niche manufacturers making rim bikes, but a trip to a Trek, Giant or Spec store will probably only have disk options in a few years.

I have no real problem with that if they quit tinkering around and stay with some kind of universal disk brake standard for 5-10 years. But I suspect it will open the floodgates for all sorts of new marginal gain improvements that mostly will end in dead ends, garbage and extra expense.

-Rotor size 100, 140, 160?
-Centerlock, 4 bolt, 6 bolt or something new?
-Axles? 10mm, 12mm, 15mm? What bolting system?


Early indications suggest it will go 12mm thru axles + centrelock. This could be subject to change if they pro's cant get quick wheel changes with the thru axle. Mavics speed release system seems to solve this but I can't see manufacturers adopting it.

My worry is they are then going to go down the MTB route and every few years start to bring out some revised rear spacing!


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Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:44 am 


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:54 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:51 am
Posts: 1937
madik wrote:

On MTB side its pretty much everything on 6 bolt system probably due to cheaper manufacturing.


Its got to do with Shimano patents and licensing rather than just straight up process costs though.

Shimano patents for it have or are expiring, and you actually see quite a few low end manufacturers adapting the design in the product line up this year.

From a technical standpoint, the Centerlock design is superior. I do think we will see the situation slowly turn around in the next few years.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:18 pm
Posts: 58
Location: New England
Lewn777 wrote:
My suspicion is that the industry want the whole pro peloton on disks by 2020. Then you'll look at your bike and will feel that it's old style and not cutting edge. So the pros will be forced, but the masses coerced. The speed at which manufacturers can jump on a bandwagon is amazing, they are terrified of being left behind. Sure, there will probably always be niche manufacturers making rim bikes, but a trip to a Trek, Giant or Spec store will probably only have disk options in a few years.

I have no real problem with that if they quit tinkering around and stay with some kind of universal disk brake standard for 5-10 years. But I suspect it will open the floodgates for all sorts of new marginal gain improvements that mostly will end in dead ends, garbage and extra expense.

-Rotor size 100, 140, 160?
-Centerlock, 4 bolt, 6 bolt or something new?
-Axles? 10mm, 12mm, 15mm? What bolting system?


Road cycling is more conservative than MTB so you dont have to worry about the standard changing after they've established one.

Unlike Shimano and Sram which have been experimenting with different sizes and standards, Campagnolo is a much smaller company. They can't afford to be experimental with their products and let Shimano/Sram do the live field testing. The UCI have established 12mm thru-axles with 160mm rotors front and 140mm rear so now Campy can hard commit to research and development with these parameters in mind. Campy is playing catch up on disc brake technology and hired the Potenza company to assist with the new line up. Most likely part of the reason why their disc brake line up is so expensive...

Neutral Support (this affects local racers too!)
Rotor Size: 160mm Front 140mm Rear
- 12mm thru-axle

Don't expect Disc to be standard option until Campagnolo completes their development of their H11 Hydraulic Disc Brake options. Cycling is still very much a political sport.

_________________
2017 Pinarello F8 Dura Ace 9100 @ 7.5kg
2013 Bianchi Infinito 105 @ 8.2kg
1982 Colnago Super Single Speed @ 8.6kg


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm
Posts: 206
My 160 front, 140 hydro disk road bike definitely stops more consistently in all weather than mySRAM Red on Kinlin rims (or any other road rim brake combo I've had) but I rarely ride my disk bike, I can control my rim brake bike fine on any descent.
I still feel that the tyres the limiting factor.
Saying that it's obvious when riding that hydraulic disks work better.
For me it's not enough though, the weight, looks and simplicity of the bike are what I love.
Di2, hydraulic disks just aren't for me, well until the weight comes down and the style goes up, this is weight weenies after all, a site where weight trumps all. I'd be disappointed if there wasn't negativity towards hydraulic disks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm
Posts: 105
i just read about the death of mp3 today, no more devices will be licenced to play mp3. the consumer has no say in the matter whatsoever. sound familiar?

not sent from a P.O.S standards incompatible iPhone/Android ;-)


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm
Posts: 587
wwnick wrote:
i just read about the death of mp3 today, no more devices will be licenced to play mp3. the consumer has no say in the matter whatsoever. sound familiar?

not sent from a P.O.S standards incompatible iPhone/Android ;-)


Actually that is a good news. MP3 was product of marketing of big companies, trying to sell low quality music to masses . For example HiRes Flac (24 bit / 96 Khz from good record label not based on marketing), sound so much better then Mp3 (but it's not for masses). When u listen the same version in Mp3 it sound like there is no music, just some sound. So if u compare with music:

Rim Brakes = TurnTables (There is everything u need, u listen whole emotion, passion of music, but it's "Old Fashioned")..

Disk Brakes =Mp3 and MP3 Players :) (there is HighTech mumbo jumbo (im IT Engineer BTW), but there is no part that u really need to enjoy the music in real matter missing dynamics, resolution and everything masked.. A lot of compression).

Hidraulic Rim Brakes = HiRes or Good CD record, on good CdPlayer (there is some soul missing from Turntables, but at least sometimes there is more dynamic, and not missing what u need to enjoy the music if its done properly on good DAC or CD Player)


So most of peoples listen music in MP3 on Mp3 Devices in 2017 .. But that not mean that is better solution compared to old fashioned TurnTables for example :)

Of course.. It would be nice if there is possability to choose what we like.. The bad thing will be if there is no possible to get what u need/like because something like Mp3 become so mass consumed (in HiFi we are lucky that Turntables are getting back so actually there is some choice)


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Posts: 147
Location: Wilmington, DE
tarmackev wrote:
For me it's not enough though, the weight, looks and simplicity of the bike are what I love.
Di2, hydraulic disks just aren't for me, well until the weight comes down and the style goes up, this is weight weenies after all, a site where weight trumps all. I'd be disappointed if there wasn't negativity towards hydraulic disks.


I solved the 'complexity' problem by using mechanically actuated hydraulic calipers (TRP HY/RD) and solved the style problem by using Campagnolo levers :D The weight, eh...Had I gone with aluminum rims that had any aero properties I'd have added significant weight compared to my 40mm carbon rims. And if I had splurged for carbon rims with good rim braking properties I would have blown my budget or not had enough money to go light elsewhere (seatpost, saddle, handlebars). I like the looks of discs on my bike, too, but that's a very personal thing.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Posts: 283
Location: NorCal/SoCal
3Pio wrote:
Actually that is a good news. MP3 was product of marketing of big companies, trying to sell low quality music to masses . For example HiRes Flac (24 bit / 96 Khz from good record label not based on marketing), sound so much better then Mp3 (but it's not for masses). When u listen the same version in Mp3 it sound like there is no music, just some sound. So if u compare with music:

Rim Brakes = TurnTables (There is everything u need, u listen whole emotion, passion of music, but it's "Old Fashioned")..

Disk Brakes =Mp3 and MP3 Players :) (there is HighTech mumbo jumbo (im IT Engineer BTW), but there is no part that u really need to enjoy the music in real matter missing dynamics, resolution and everything masked.. A lot of compression).

Hidraulic Rim Brakes = HiRes or Good CD record, on good CdPlayer (there is some soul missing from Turntables, but at least sometimes there is more dynamic, and not missing what u need to enjoy the music if its done properly on good DAC or CD Player)


So most of peoples listen music in MP3 on Mp3 Devices in 2017 .. But that not mean that is better solution compared to old fashioned TurnTables for example :)

Of course.. It would be nice if there is possability to choose what we like.. The bad thing will be if there is no possible to get what u need/like because something like Mp3 become so mass consumed (in HiFi we are lucky that Turntables are getting back so actually there is some choice)




If you want to use that analogy, I would say rim brakes are the MP3. With rim brakes you are using a stretchable cable inside a compressible housing that actuates a caliper (mounted with a single flexible bolt) with flexible arms clamping onto a compressible rim with compressible brake pads... It's the system with lots of compression and missing dynamics. :wink:




.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm
Posts: 206
MoPho wrote:
3Pio wrote:
Actually that is a good news. MP3 was product of marketing of big companies, trying to sell low quality music to masses . For example HiRes Flac (24 bit / 96 Khz from good record label not based on marketing), sound so much better then Mp3 (but it's not for masses). When u listen the same version in Mp3 it sound like there is no music, just some sound. So if u compare with music:

Rim Brakes = TurnTables (There is everything u need, u listen whole emotion, passion of music, but it's "Old Fashioned")..

Disk Brakes =Mp3 and MP3 Players :) (there is HighTech mumbo jumbo (im IT Engineer BTW), but there is no part that u really need to enjoy the music in real matter missing dynamics, resolution and everything masked.. A lot of compression).

Hidraulic Rim Brakes = HiRes or Good CD record, on good CdPlayer (there is some soul missing from Turntables, but at least sometimes there is more dynamic, and not missing what u need to enjoy the music if its done properly on good DAC or CD Player)


So most of peoples listen music in MP3 on Mp3 Devices in 2017 .. But that not mean that is better solution compared to old fashioned TurnTables for example :)

Of course.. It would be nice if there is possability to choose what we like.. The bad thing will be if there is no possible to get what u need/like because something like Mp3 become so mass consumed (in HiFi we are lucky that Turntables are getting back so actually there is some choice)




If you want to use that analogy, I would say rim brakes are the MP3. With rim brakes you are using a stretchable cable inside a compressible housing that actuates a caliper (mounted with a single flexible bolt) with flexible arms clamping onto a compressible rim with compressible brake pads... It's the system with lots of compression and missing dynamics. :wink:




.

I have to agree with a lot of what MoPho says.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:53 am
Posts: 760
Disk brakes are just a different tool for a different job.

C

PS That said I can't remember the last time my rim brakes, have not done what I have asked them to do.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm
Posts: 105
well , my point was that the consumer has very little to say in any of these changes.
yes , quick death, I say to mp3 and lets have an open standard replace it, (flac - storage is no longer a concern) but what of people who have spent money on huge mp3 collections, (maybe they never did, i never bought mp3, i dont know, does anyone sell mp3 music), then the rug is pulled out from them, without a say.

hahaha, have to laugh at the comparisons you all made, verry funny indeed.
another shitty thing that happened in computers for the benefit of the user was integrated ram and batteries, pfffff and now it is very difficult, if not impossible to buy an upgradeable laptop.

disc brakes are like "Windows 10" ;-)


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Posts: 238
Location: Wet coast, Canada
I rode in the rain yesterday with 2 friends. Myself and one other on rim brakes with alloy wheels, the other on Shimano hydraulic disc. No one had any problems and amazingly we all survived to see the sun rise again today. Well, not really because it's the west coast of Canada, but the sun was out there somewhere. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:27 pm
Posts: 97
silvalis wrote:
Wait... your roadie rimbrakes on narrow tyres have the same power and modulation as hydro discs on a fat mtb tyre? I think you're doing something wrong...


And your mtb timeline is wrong. We went to 29 because we were told 26 was crap. Then we went to 27.5 because we were told 29 was too big.

Now? Seems like 29 was right all along.



Sounds like it's time for .... 28.25


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm
Posts: 105
industry is pushing disc brakes as a safety feature, but one that is coincidentally going to make them more money.
real safety, such as scanning carbon for defects is not happening, because i imagine, it would cost the companies money.

very interesting topic : Why isn't the bike industry scanning composites for flaws? http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/why-is ... aws/019939

I applaud Canyon for implementing these checks. ( their disc bikes not so much )


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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:34 pm 


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