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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Location: Vienna Austria
Braking on my LB carbon clinchers with Reynolds blue (or similar) pads brake is almost too good, no way could I use full braking power without lifting or locking the rear.

I prefer this combo to the much lauded Shimano RC55c3 pads on aluminum rims by a large margin.


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Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:30 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Posts: 316
Location: NorCal/SoCal
Lewn777 wrote:
Calm down mate.
Someone on the internet has a different opinion, it's not the end of the world.


I am calm mate, I just don't appreciate you insulting my intelligence accusing me of "drinking the kool aid" and questioning my personal experience
Everyone I know who has bought a disc brake road bike absolutely loves them and my experience echoes theirs. I've also ridden rim brakes for 25 years, I'm not some noob. :roll:


It's only propaganda because you decided not to believe it. During most anti-disc discussions on forums, folks (who have their own agenda) regurgitate the same old (often disproven) talking points that go around, that is propaganda too. The only way to become informed is to try it out for yourself, that is what I did. :thumbup:

.





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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:51 pm 
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MoPho wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
Calm down mate.
Someone on the internet has a different opinion, it's not the end of the world.


I am calm mate, I just don't appreciate you insulting my intelligence accusing me of "drinking the kool aid" and questioning my personal experience
.


You definitely need to calm down :mrgreen: Everybody is quite easy on this forum :thumbup: and BTW, this is the purpose of such forum to exchange opinions :wink: in a civilized way 8)
Hey, what's about going for a nice long ride on your nice bike? that helps :wink: and then post nice pictures (like you usually do) in the dedicated thread ! :thumbup: That's the MoPho we do prefer :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:54 pm 
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Posts: 316
Location: NorCal/SoCal
TonyM wrote:
You definitely need to calm down :mrgreen: Everybody is quite easy on this forum :thumbup: and BTW, this is the purpose of such forum to exchange opinions :wink: in a civilized way 8)
Hey, what's about going for a nice long ride on your nice bike? that helps :wink: and then post nice pictures (like you usually do) in the dedicated thread ! :thumbup: That's the MoPho we do prefer :beerchug:



So let me get this straight, your allowed your opinion but I am not allowed to question it? OK :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:00 pm 
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MoPho wrote:
TonyM wrote:
You definitely need to calm down :mrgreen: Everybody is quite easy on this forum :thumbup: and BTW, this is the purpose of such forum to exchange opinions :wink: in a civilized way 8)
Hey, what's about going for a nice long ride on your nice bike? that helps :wink: and then post nice pictures (like you usually do) in the dedicated thread ! :thumbup: That's the MoPho we do prefer :beerchug:



So let me get this straight, your allowed your opinion but I am not allowed to question it? OK :roll:


.


All opinions are accepted :beerchug: that's the point of such forums :wink:
And we all get your point - in this thread and in all others threads :wink:

But your words to Lewn777 writing that he is "insulting your intelligence" or "accusing" or "questioning" are a little bit too much I would say.....
Why don't you PM him if you have a problem with him ? :wink:

And go for a ride :wink: and post such nice pics like you usually do!


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Posts: 316
Location: NorCal/SoCal
TonyM wrote:
MoPho wrote:
All opinions are accepted :beerchug: that's the point of such forums :wink:
And we all get your point - in this thread and in all others threads :wink:

But your words to Lewn777 writing that he is "insulting your intelligence" or "accusing" or "questioning" are a little bit too much I would say.....
Why don't you PM him if you have a problem with him ? :wink:

And go for a ride :wink: and post such nice pics like you usually do!


And now you are being patronizing :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Posts: 316
Location: NorCal/SoCal
BeeSeeBee wrote:
For the people who switched from carbon clinchers to discs, did you try/consider aluminum brake tracks (a la Hed, Mavic, Campy/Fulcrum depending on desired depth) before switching? I completely understand the desire to move away from carbon braking surfaces, but it seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to disregard the fact that aluminum braking surfaces have also progressed and at least in my opinion are phenomenal. Couple hundred grams of weight penalty but you still that all black aesthetic 8)



I have both carbon and alloy wheels for my rim brake bike. With the expensive oversized reynolds pads and textured brake track, I think the braking is actually better with the carbon wheels than with the alloy, BUT the consistency on a long technical descent isn't as good and they are noisy. The feel and control is not as good as disc with either.
A few years ago on a 50mph descent we had to make an emergency stop and a friend blew his tire off the alloy rim from the heat and crashed, it was a decisive moment for me to want disc brakes.
Seems to me it would only be throwing the baby out if you have a collection of wheels that you use, otherwise buying a complete bike is buying a complete bike, doesn't matter what the braking system is.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:19 pm 
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Posts: 1407
I'm tired of the hand wringing over this topic. If in 10 years nobody sells a bike with disc brakes then we will have to adjust or buy custom. End of story.

In the mean time, keep buying rim brakes if that is what you want and vote with your purchasing power.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Posts: 488
Location: Bay Area, CA
So am I, but the industry (manufacturers and journalists alike) has done absolutely nothing to address our concerns and thoughts on the subject. We still don't really have a great understanding about the impact of aerodynamics, we certainly don't have a good understanding of the differences in braking force vs power, we just know as a system it's heavier because that's something we have the ability to easily test as consumers.

When people reference aluminum vs carbon braking, is it simple machined aluminum or PEO coated/textured vs the latest and greatest in carbon brake tracks/pads? When people compare rim to disc, is it cable rim vs cable disc or hydro rim vs hydro disc (plus whatever combination of aluminum or carbon braking surfaces) or some random combination of all of those, making for terrible protocol. All that's really being presented for the most part is disc > rim without any nuance, despite that there's probably significant differences within each of those categories:

*Most of these are ancient because I haven't seen anything done in a number of years.

Are all discs created equal?
Image

Image

Carbon clinchers certainly weren't up to par with aluminum when they were first getting popular, have they bridged the gap these days?
http://www.roadbike.de/test/parts/im-de ... 5142.9.htm
Image

http://www.roadbike.de/test/parts/roadb ... 20.9.htm#1
Image

When people say that it's a marketing driven push, it's hard not to say that's true given the complete lack of data we have around all this, other than anecdotes from reviewers whose paychecks are effectively signed by the manufacturers advertising with them (see: the number of actual rumors and embargoed pictures/info pulled from sites, presumably to not piss off their advertisers). My problem isn't that there are new options and systems available to people, it's that I think they're being presented in rather dishonest or obfuscated ways.


Last edited by BeeSeeBee on Sun May 14, 2017 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:02 am
Posts: 192
Location: Brisbane
Lewn777 wrote:
silvalis wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
On my bike with alloy Campaganolo or DT Swiss rims my 105 rim brakes with stock pads in the dry have exactly the same power AND modulation as the Shimano XT and SLX brakes I've been using for years on my MTBs.



Lewn777 wrote:
Yep, I can endo using one finger on my mountain bike too. But if I put that amount of power on to the front wheel of my road bike I'd leave a long black streak and face plant. :roll:

%snip%
-Pull the brake at the end of the lever with two fingers



Sooo... you don't have the same power and modulation...


How did you figure that out:?: I use two fingers on a road bike because the lever is designed to use two fingers and roads are smooth, mostly :roll: .
I use one finger on a mountain bike because the lever is designed for one finger and dirt tracks are rough and you need your other fingers to keep hold of the bar.


Except because you use two fingers means that you are putting more effort into braking, hence you dont' have the same power/modulation.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:52 pm 
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Posts: 696
BeeSeeBee wrote:
So am I, but the industry (manufacturers and journalists alike) has done absolutely nothing to address our concerns and thoughts on the subject. We still don't really have a great understanding about the impact of aerodynamics, we certainly don't have a good understanding of the differences in braking force vs power, we just know as a system it's heavier because that's something we have the ability to easily test as consumers.

When people reference aluminum vs carbon braking, is it simple machined aluminum or PEO coated/textured vs the latest and greatest in carbon brake tracks/pads? When people compare rim to disc, is it cable rim vs cable disc or hydro rim vs hydro disc (plus whatever combination of aluminum or carbon braking surfaces) or some random combination of all of those, making for terrible protocol. All that's really being presented for the most part is disc > rim without any nuance, despite that there's probably significant differences within each of those categories:

*Most of these are ancient because I haven't seen anything done in a number of years.

Are all discs created equal?
Image

Image

Carbon clinchers certainly weren't up to par with aluminum when they were first getting popular, have they bridged the gap these days?
http://www.roadbike.de/test/parts/im-de ... 5142.9.htm
Image

http://www.roadbike.de/test/parts/roadb ... 20.9.htm#1
Image

When people say that it's a marketing driven push, it's hard not to say that's true given the complete lack of data we have around all this, other than anecdotes from reviewers whose paychecks are effectively signed by the manufacturers advertising with them (see: the number of actual rumors and embargoed pictures/info pulled from sites, presumably to not piss off their advertisers). My problem isn't that there are new options and systems available to people, it's that I think they're being presented in rather dishonest or obfuscated ways.


quite informative! thanks! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 91
silvalis wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
silvalis wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
On my bike with alloy Campaganolo or DT Swiss rims my 105 rim brakes with stock pads in the dry have exactly the same power AND modulation as the Shimano XT and SLX brakes I've been using for years on my MTBs.



Lewn777 wrote:
Yep, I can endo using one finger on my mountain bike too. But if I put that amount of power on to the front wheel of my road bike I'd leave a long black streak and face plant. :roll:

%snip%
-Pull the brake at the end of the lever with two fingers



Sooo... you don't have the same power and modulation...


How did you figure that out:?: I use two fingers on a road bike because the lever is designed to use two fingers and roads are smooth, mostly :roll: .
I use one finger on a mountain bike because the lever is designed for one finger and dirt tracks are rough and you need your other fingers to keep hold of the bar.


Except because you use two fingers means that you are putting more effort into braking, hence you dont' have the same power/modulation.


So I'm supposed to use a brake lever in a way different to how it's designed to satisfy your definition of power and modulation? :lol:
Fact is I can make my brakes leave long black lines on the road in the dry and I can feel the difference in the lever stroke between nothing and full-on, modulation is therefore good too.

Lets imagine disk brakes do have more power and modulation in the dry, it's power you can't possibly use and modulation you can barely feel. Worth the extra weight, for me, on my summer climbing bike with alloy rims? Not at this stage, but maybe in a few years.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 91
MoPho wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:
Calm down mate.
Someone on the internet has a different opinion, it's not the end of the world.


I am calm mate, I just don't appreciate you insulting my intelligence accusing me of "drinking the kool aid" and questioning my personal experience
Everyone I know who has bought a disc brake road bike absolutely loves them and my experience echoes theirs. I've also ridden rim brakes for 25 years, I'm not some noob. :roll:


It's only propaganda because you decided not to believe it. During most anti-disc discussions on forums, folks (who have their own agenda) regurgitate the same old (often disproven) talking points that go around, that is propaganda too. The only way to become informed is to try it out for yourself, that is what I did. :thumbup:

.


Nobody said you are a noob. Stop taking things so personally.

If anything I'm the noob to road bikes at only three years of serious riding, albeit with 20+ years of road motorcycling including track days and 10+ years mountain biking. So honestly I have a very long history of not only using but servicing hydraulic brakes.

Fact is there just isn't enough data. We can bash each other over the head with anecdotal evidence. Some people think their carbon pads on carbon rims are great, others are more than happy with the performance of their alloy rims, others swear by their disks. That's fine.

Just try to remember that not everyone wants a wholesale industry driven switch over to hydraulic disks. Inevitably I see my self on disks within 5 years, but I really want to be assured that the standards we are buying into are here to stay. How do you know that they might not switch to a four bolt pattern 100mm rotor with a four pot caliper and different mounting system?

Disks, fine. Great to have the choice, if I lived somewhere wet I'd be on them in a heartbeat. Problems come when an industry might want to push something through using marketing rather than let the market decide more naturally over time.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:36 pm
Posts: 710
I like the idea of disc brakes as an option and am glad that Campagnolo has finally released their version. However, I am also hoping that rim brakes are not completely replaced by disc brakes. I believe disc brakes and rim brakes should coexist moving forward. Each system has certain benefits and disadvantages for different applications. The consumer should have the choice of which system they prefer and not be "forced" into disc brakes by the manufacturers.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:51 am 
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Posts: 91
fogman wrote:
I like the idea of disc brakes as an option and am glad that Campagnolo has finally released their version. However, I am also hoping that rim brakes are not completely replaced by disc brakes. I believe disc brakes and rim brakes should coexist moving forward. Each system has certain benefits and disadvantages for different applications. The consumer should have the choice of which system they prefer and not be "forced" into disc brakes by the manufacturers.

My suspicion is that the industry want the whole pro peloton on disks by 2020. Then you'll look at your bike and will feel that it's old style and not cutting edge. So the pros will be forced, but the masses coerced. The speed at which manufacturers can jump on a bandwagon is amazing, they are terrified of being left behind. Sure, there will probably always be niche manufacturers making rim bikes, but a trip to a Trek, Giant or Spec store will probably only have disk options in a few years.

I have no real problem with that if they quit tinkering around and stay with some kind of universal disk brake standard for 5-10 years. But I suspect it will open the floodgates for all sorts of new marginal gain improvements that mostly will end in dead ends, garbage and extra expense.

-Rotor size 100, 140, 160?
-Centerlock, 4 bolt, 6 bolt or something new?
-Axles? 10mm, 12mm, 15mm? What bolting system?


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