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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 2269
Location: Vienna Austria
Mine are. I run Shimano, Magura and Juin discs on my MTBs and Monster Crossers, and Tektro, Sram and Ciamillo calipers on carbon and aluminum clincher on road / allroad bikes. I have no problem stopping with the calipers.


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Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:33 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Posts: 170
Location: Los Angeles, California
Excellent topic. It makes me wonder if rim brakes can improve sufficiently to keep up with discs.
The latest Dura Ace offerings make generational improvements.
Or are we maxed-out here and throwing good money after bad?
The lousy stopping power of my el cheapo rim brakes on my rainbike this last season left me hankering for better. :shock:

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Posts: 529
Way too much handwringing going on here. People are getting bent about what might happen in 5-10 years. It only matters because you will probably want new stuff. If you don't want the new stuff, just keep riding what you have, spares will likely always be available on eBay. I've got new bikes that are neato, but I still ride my 8 year old Cannondale with 10 speeds and everything is fine.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 54
silvalis wrote:
Wait... your roadie rimbrakes on narrow tyres have the same power and modulation as hydro discs on a fat mtb tyre? I think you're doing something wrong...

Maybe it's me but I can't understand in the dry having or needing more power or modulation on a rim brake. I only first tried rim brakes about three years ago. I thought they'd be hopeless I was very surprised how good they are in the dry.

Well the usual thing to say is; 'the vast majority of people that dislike disk brakes simply haven't even tried them'. Whereas I'm saying I've extensively used and love hydraulic disk brakes. I genuinely love them on the right kind of bike, but the idea of being railroaded into adding an extra kg on to my summer climbing road bike and a shedload of extra cost makes my skin crawl.

MoPho wrote:
Lewn777 wrote:

Problem comes when you are a veteran rider with thousands of $$$$ invested in other standards and wheel sizes, you've been had.


.... Or you can just keep riding what you have and not worry about it :noidea:


(and disc brakes are better in the dry too)



.

Problem is I ride 20,000kms a year, so I wear stuff out and break stuff so even with a new bike now I'll be looking at a new frame and fork etc within 2-3 years. What I don't want is to come to bicycle industry in 2 years time and only have the choice of disk brakes adding around a kg to my bike, making vast amounts of my current equipment redundant and disk brake standards in a state of undecided flux.

Then people say 'don't worry with the natural rate of development it will take 5-10 years before rim brake bikes are phased out'. But I'm worried that manufacturers might decide that timeline doesn't really work for them and might try to muscle things along. If you don't understand why I'm worried then you haven't been paying attention what has happened in the MTB industry in the last five years. Plus many of them don't seem to be talking to each other about deciding on disk sizes, safety protection, mounting and axle sizes. Big players like Trek and Giant think they can simply decide what's best for the entire industry.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:11 pm
Posts: 408
Location: Canada (BC) (formerly F, D and CH)
I suppose the vast majority of the bikers here ride less than 10.000km/ year! :lol:
And they change their bike/ parts as soon as something new is coming and they have the cash (hey it's WW here :P ). Good for the industry.
I personally have nothing against them/ that. Everybody should do they think is the best for them.

Although I do also hope that the industry will not make the same move on road bikes than on the MTB (try to find a high end 26" wheelset for example), I suppose that will happen because the industry learned that from the MTB market. It's all about $$

Without the rainy weather here I will not buy a disc road bike. I bought my C60 2 years ago and I have enough wheelsets and SR parts to "survive" the next 10-15 years. For my "rain" bike, I will however go disc and Di2/eTap to be on the "safe" side.

Actually it is pretty funny to see that many people will buy a new bike for the better braking instead of making them faster with more stiffness, less weight etc.... :lol: :mrgreen:

Disc brake are only an improvement if you bike in the wet/ rain and/or if you are a poor downhill biker.

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- Currently: Road: 2015 Colnago C60 SR 6.5kg; 1994/1999 Colnago Dream DA 8 speed (rain/ winter/ home trainer)/ MTB: 2012 Scott Scale & Scott Spark XTR 26"


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Posts: 283
Location: NorCal/SoCal
Lewn777 wrote:
Maybe it's me but I can't understand in the dry having or needing more power or modulation on a rim brake. I only first tried rim brakes about three years ago. I thought they'd be hopeless I was very surprised how good they are in the dry.

Well the usual thing to say is; 'the vast majority of people that dislike disk brakes simply haven't even tried them'. Whereas I'm saying I've extensively used and love hydraulic disk brakes. I genuinely love them on the right kind of bike, but the idea of being railroaded into adding an extra kg on to my summer climbing road bike and a shedload of extra cost makes my skin crawl.


Problem is I ride 20,000kms a year, so I wear stuff out and break stuff so even with a new bike now I'll be looking at a new frame and fork etc within 2-3 years. What I don't want is to come to bicycle industry in 2 years time and only have the choice of disk brakes adding around a kg to my bike, making vast amounts of my current equipment redundant and disk brake standards in a state of undecided flux.

Then people say 'don't worry with the natural rate of development it will take 5-10 years before rim brake bikes are phased out'. But I'm worried that manufacturers might decide that timeline doesn't really work for them and might try to muscle things along. If you don't understand why I'm worried then you haven't been paying attention what has happened in the MTB industry in the last five years. Plus many of them don't seem to be talking to each other about deciding on disk sizes, safety protection, mounting and axle sizes.



My last bike had over 50k km and didn't even need anything besides expendable bits, not sure why you would need a new frame after only a couple of years. Even with high mileage a good frame should last decades (crashing aside)


And sure, rim brakes are good, but disc is better. Some people like myself put value on that, the better feel alone was worth it.
And my bike is only around 300g heavier than my friends identically set up rim brake bike, not the big weight penalty folks try and make it out to be. Nor was there a "shedload of extra cost". I could have just as easily spent the same money on a rim brake bike.

I get your concern, but it's 2017, most of the stuff we buy these days becomes obsolete in short order get used to it.


.


.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Posts: 283
Location: NorCal/SoCal
TonyM wrote:
Actually it is pretty funny to see that many people will buy a new bike for the better braking instead of making them faster with more stiffness, less weight etc.... :lol: :mrgreen:


Stiffness and less weight is just another way for the bike industry to sell you a new bike and make more $$$ :wink:


Quote:
Disc brake are only an improvement if you bike in the wet/ rain and/or if you are a poor downhill biker.



Sorry, but you are absolutely wrong, I do a lot of technical descending, I am good at it and I live in California, disc brakes are better.



.

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Last edited by MoPho on Fri May 12, 2017 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:11 pm
Posts: 408
Location: Canada (BC) (formerly F, D and CH)
MoPho wrote:
I get your concern, but it's 2017, most of the stuff we buy these days becomes obsolete in short order get used to it.


@ Lewn777:
That's the point! there is no way we can really change it. So we better adapt :P
I know my bikes will not last so long as before (mainly because of the shortage of spare parts; Ebay usually offers only used spare parts for the older groups. Nice for collectors but not for me if I really use these on the roads). That's why I don't buy so many wheelsets and spare parts like 25 years ago.

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- Currently: Road: 2015 Colnago C60 SR 6.5kg; 1994/1999 Colnago Dream DA 8 speed (rain/ winter/ home trainer)/ MTB: 2012 Scott Scale & Scott Spark XTR 26"


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:59 pm 
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Posts: 408
Location: Canada (BC) (formerly F, D and CH)
MoPho wrote:
TonyM wrote:
Actually it is pretty funny to see that many people will buy a new bike for the better braking instead of making them faster with more stiffness, less weight etc.... :lol: :mrgreen:

Stiffness and less weight is just another way for the bike industry to sell you a new bike and make more $$$ :wink:
Quote:
Disc brake are only an improvement if you bike in the wet/ rain and/or if you are a poor downhill biker.

Sorry, but you are absolutely wrong, I do a lot of technical descending, I am good at it and I live in CA, disc brakes are better.
.


More stiffness and less weight are not only making $$$ for the industry. They do also help you getting faster (if you have the necessary FTP for that.....not only the cash $$).

And if you do a lot of technical descents and if you are good at that (?) then you should know it: disc brakes are better, yes - but they are not necessary.... :mrgreen:
BTW, how much do you weigh :mrgreen: ? (the more you weigh the more you will enjoy the disc brakes in the descents...)

_________________
- Currently: Road: 2015 Colnago C60 SR 6.5kg; 1994/1999 Colnago Dream DA 8 speed (rain/ winter/ home trainer)/ MTB: 2012 Scott Scale & Scott Spark XTR 26"


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 12:05 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:48 pm
Posts: 283
Location: NorCal/SoCal
TonyM wrote:

More stiffness and less weight are not only making $$$ for the industry. They do also help you getting faster (if you have the necessary FTP for that.....not only the cash $$).


The bike doesn't make you faster, riding it does :roll:

Quote:
And if you do a lot of technical descents and if you are good at that (?) then you should know it: disc brakes are better, yes - but they are not necessary.... :mrgreen:


11 speed cassettes are not necessary. paddle shifters and electronic shifting are not necessary. Clipless pedals are not necessary. Carbon fiber bikes are not necessary. Light weight is not necessary. Aero is not necessary. Etc.


.

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:49 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm
Posts: 206
silvalis wrote:
Wait... your roadie rimbrakes on narrow tyres have the same power and modulation as hydro discs on a fat mtb tyre? I think you're doing something wrong...


And your mtb timeline is wrong. We went to 29 because we were told 26 was crap. Then we went to 27.5 because we were told 29 was too big.

Now? Seems like 29 was right all along.


Yup.
I can get my mountain bike up on its front wheel using one finger on the brake lever. I'm not willing to attempt it on my road bike but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't happen.

At 200lbs 2 months ago I noticed a huge difference in stopping between my disc and caliper road bikes.
I'm down to 180lbs now and it's not so pronounced.
I was actually stunned at how my body weight effected braking on a 10% decline at 30+ mph.
It's something I never considered before, the heavier you are the more benefit you get from discs. 140lb guys on the road may not feel as much benefit as heavier rider.
Obviously not scientifically tested, just an observation from personal experience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm
Posts: 587
Lewn777 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY6btAPsbsk

I was pretty disturbed to hear cycle industry propaganda talking about 'hydraulic disk brakes freeing up frame space to allow manufacturers to innovate' sounds exactly like the MTB 27.5, boost and fat and plus wheel and axle options propaganda that have been floating around the MTB industry. On my bike with alloy Campaganolo or DT Swiss rims my 105 rim brakes with stock pads in the dry have exactly the same power AND modulation as the Shimano XT and SLX brakes I've been using for years on my MTBs. But rim brakes are so easy to set up, don't drag, don't need to be bled or the disk trued, also disk brake pads are expensive and can get contaminated quite easily.

I'm not against hydraulic disk brakes, they have their place, commuting, bike-packing, gravel and very good for companies not getting sued by people using carbon rim brake wheels and can save money as you only need to replace a disk not a rim and can be more aero. However in MTB riders were duped into leaving 26 inch for 27.5. All the best wheels and tires only in 27.5. 26 inch? 'Sorry mate not available'. And now 27.5 will be phased out being replaced by 29 inch. 20mm axles 12mm axles, boost spacing, plus spacing. The cycle industry trying to make more money but creating redundant dead end standards.

In the end as I've said before there is nothing really wrong with hydraulic brakes other than the weight and extra wrenching skill needed, but my worry is that all the pros will be forced onto disks by their sponsors and then everyone else will be left being forced in that direction. Buying a bike at the UCI weight limit or getting an entry level bike upgraded to that weight will become hugely more expensive, and if you live in a fairly low rainfall country it will be an almost completely unnecessary waste of money.


I'll compare this to MTB world and 26" wheelset bikes since im coming from MTB world. In 2008 i decided to replace my Stumpjumper FSR XC (with Risse Racing Astro 5 rear shock, and two links one who was making me 3" of travel, and other 4" of travel) with Specialized Epic Marathon Carbon bike.

Even the stumpjumper was lighter bike, i really like it a lot The Epic so decided to buy after a test ride. This is one of the bikes i really love. For me, best MTB bike i ever rode. Light enough, responsive, good climber, very stable.. Few years later, 29" wheelset hype started. I must admit that i was almost brainwashed about that, until i had a chance to try new Specialized EPIC 29" version and to compare with my bike. I realized that i dont like 29" wheelset at all. Less responsive, heavier, did not like at all (i was saying in that time, that 29" could not survive for all height peoples, and it will come back to 26" later. And then 27.5" happened :) few years later).

Anyway, i was i worried that i'll have to replace the bike i like just because there is no more support as it is a old standard. But this was just worrying without reason :) I'll just tell u that i still enjoy and ride this bike, and last year i send it for rebuild my rear shock, so now i have a new one which have warranty of at 3 years (and since is "old standard" the cost vas very cheap). Front Fork is Fox Float 32 RLC, which i can rebuild my self, and there is still all the parts i need for that.

Next, since i decide to keep this bike as long as possible, i just upgraded the Wheelset to Mavic CrossMax 26" for very low price :) I wanted to do this in 2011, but this kind of wheelset cost was 1000 eur. I almsot done that but the last pair there was on stock in shop in Austria (i was on Holiday there), had a small crack, so i did not buy them then. Now i done that for 370 eur (ok, 470 eur when i calculate all the tax i payed and customs..)

Before i decided to upgrade the wheelset (i done that 2-3 months ago), i was worried that maybe i would not be able to find HighEnd tires since 26" is no more supported, so i was thinking is this is ok decision or not. Again wrong.. Maybe there is less choice then before, but i'll tell u that im waiting for Scwalbe Thunder Burt Evo SnakeSkin PaceStar 26" in 2.1" (i dont like wider then 2.1, and my perfect is 2.0"). As first i was impulsive to buy more tires, just to have them in the case it's not possible to buy nice tires, but after research i realized that there is still plenty of 26" tires available, so i just ordered what i needed at the moment.

BTW, there is some MTB Off Road segments around which are very popular. I can see that on my Old Fashioned 26" Specialized Epic Marathon Carbon, i have much better timing on them (specially HC Uphill segments), compared to a lot of guys on their Ultra Modern 29" Bikes :), so probably i'll upgrade my bike only if it's not usefull anymore (and i'll go for 27.5" in that case, not for 29". Or maybe 26" standard would return by then (as more stiff, more responsive and lighter :) )compared to 27.5 or 29)

The new hype for Discs which we definetly not needed on road bike (ok, u need them if u like to ride Clincher Carbons wheelset (i dont see a point of riding a Carbon Clinchers at all, but this is other subject), or if u ride a lot in the rain), can lead that in one period of time we will have chance to buy "old fashined" but high end frames and parts much cheaper then u can buy them in this moment :)

So for me this can be nice part of this new Marketing Hype :) and not worried at all :)

And there is something very special, when u beat some guy segment by big margin, who use only ASOS, ride his Latest Technology HighEnd bike in the fashion with everything which is "most modern, most advanced.." on ur old Fashioned Non Aero bike and heavy frame bike" :)


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am
Posts: 186
Lewn777 wrote:
I was pretty disturbed to hear cycle industry propaganda


this is so true.

plus, bikeradar's video sucks. don't waste time clicking any of their videos.

but then i got my only bike that's a disc brake TCR ADV SL. when it's only bike and only wheelset i got to make compromise. and consider the weather (sub-tropical) and terrain (hilly) in HK it's no brainer to get disc brake (and i like carbon rims). not saying rim brake makes no sense, just buy what you want.

anyway, i hope the media would stop doing stupid things to persuade people disc brake is good is great is blablabla... and let the pros use whatever they want. I just want to watch competitive races.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:47 pm
Posts: 116
It's a popular mistake to think that discs are better the heavier you are. The reason is: Road bike rim brakes have higher maximum stopping power. If you do not need the maximum stopping power, you perceive discs to have more power as they have a bigger power to hand force ratio than rim brakes.
All that is for rotors up to 160mm. If heavy guys are supposed to benefit from disc brakes, they need 180mm rotors at least at the front.
For me as a 230lbs rider, the best setup is alloy brake tracks, Shimano rim brakes, high quality pads, high quality cables. This setup beats my disc brake CX bike with 160mm rotors in any weather on the road. Discs have their place off-road, also because of the disadvantages of off road rim brake systems.

If the bike industry were interested in actual innovation, they wouldn't push for 160mm max size for disc rotors. Thing is, if disc brakes wouldn't make it necessary to buy a new bike, we would probably not see high end disc brake road groups at all.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Posts: 607
Bikes are pretty simple machines and haven't changed much in 100 years. There aren't a lot of improvements to be made that really make much difference in speed or comfort. To sell more stuff, manufacturers have to hype / overstate the benefits of new products. It's called marketing. Marketing is not all bad -- it can be useful when explaining to the wife why I think I need new stuff!

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Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:35 pm 


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