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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:23 am 
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i really don't understand how a discussion based forum is supposed to work if we are going to have certain contributions to that discussion removed, not because they are ad hominem attacks, but because some person thinks they aren't worthy of retention. also i don't see why a discussion of the merits of a particular bike design philosophy isn't fair game in each and every thread on a bike based forum. certainly overall i have enjoyed this thread and was glad that it did not disintegrate into pettiness but instead stayed a reasonable discussion. on the other hand i agree with the earlier example, cited from a ryanH post i think, that it is tedious for people to piss on a discussion about aero with that fundamental question re: aero worth.

couldn't we just have castigation of transgressions rather than comment removal? i mean who cares if some posts are slightly off topic etc. where is the unfettered discussion supposed to occur if not here?

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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:23 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 am 
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The problem is that there's a certain group of the same people that keep coming into these threads to debate the merits of an aero frame with zero intention of learning anything or being constructive. Meanwhile, there are others here that want to make a better informed decision about the new crop of aero frames and would like to discuss them in context of each other.

But, again, it comes down to it being the same group of trolls in every thread. Those are the people that are making it less pleasant for those that actually want to discuss the topic...which is causing some to reach out to the mods.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:49 am 
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I agree, aero bikes are some of my favorite and I usually like these threads until, inevitably, it devolves into the same few posters coming in with the intent to piss on the whole category with the verbatim argument they've used in all of them for years now.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:59 am 
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I have no problem admitting I’m the one reporting the thread.

Why moderate threads and not just let them get derailed, etc.? Because it lowers the quality of content and turns people off the thread if it just devolves into an endless cycle of arguing, and it becomes tiring after years of doing it. Go back to page one of this thread, you’ve got a series of posts discussing the merits of the test, then two posts just calling into question everything about aerodynamics, the tests, journalism, etc. and the derail starts. Seven pages later, here we are, and it’s been so much worse.

A sampling of aero threads for hundreds of pages of endless arguing over the same things in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=131873
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=133067
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=136752
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138605

The same tired arguments in every thread:

That x, y, or z pro isn’t using an aero frame in x, y, or z race is an actual literal argumentative fallacy that shouldn’t need to be addressed, but here we go. Why? Because it involves obviously cherry picking things that you get to be the arbiter of, such as arbitrarily deciding aero bikes aren’t you know aero aero bikes, by whatever random metric you’ve decided to go with. Cherry picking which races you look at , etc. (there’s like 25 people on the planet for who GC bike considerations apply to, and you and I aren’t it, so why are is such a ridiculous outlier being entertained). If you want to discuss the merits bike types as seen in the pros, there’s the pro thread. But here? It’s just stupidly muddying the waters.

Plus, they’re not even a good basis for the argument that they know what’s best from the fact that They don't know what their bikes weigh, they don't know what tire pressures they run (And again). You’ve got countless stories of traditionalism in cycling, as told by Josh Poertner from his time at Zipp, they’re just as flawed as the rest of us at discerning things, etc. It’s just a tremendously weak argument.

That the cyclist makes up the majority of drag? Nobody’s denied this. Seriously, everyone knows we’re optimizing in the margins here. This isn’t some grand revelation, nor some argument against aerodynamics, saving 10% of 20% is still a gain. We get it, you can optimize your position first, but all else being equal is what we’re discussing here. You weigh more than your bike too, yet a debate about the theory of gravity or diet advice would get pretty annoying every time we had a thread that so much as mentioned frame weight wouldn’t it?

That it only saves you <unremarkable amount of time> over <whatever distance> completely misses the point. Not that this should need explaining, but some people ride bikes for different reasons than you. It’s fine. Nobody goes into every thread with a non-aero bike and tell them they’d be faster on an aero bike, so likewise, don’t come into aero threads saying “aero doesn’t work and here’s nothing to prove that.”

As for any data refuting that aerodynamics work, well they try to misrepresent the data to fit their arguments, but it doesn’t work, because aerodynamics work.
viewtopic.php?p=1221691#p1221691 (probably the most egregious example of arguing in bad faith)
viewtopic.php?p=1221739#p1221739

That they’re pushing aerodynamics in marketing? Marketing dishonest? Why I never! Again, we constantly recommend people field test using the Chung Method since aerodynamics is individual and you’re only going to get some information in wind tunnel tests (the gains will be different in a more dynamic environment than the tunnel, but you can still measure them).

I have no problem with people asking questions, but when you ask a question, receive an answer, and then repeat the same question without ever acknowledging the answer you got, it’s a bit like a kid asking “why” to everything you say. If you've got questions, don't hesitate to ask. If you've decided that aerodynamics don't matter, don't exist, etc. and aren't open to discussion and dialog, why come into these threads to just be a contrarian?

Ryan, I don’t expect you to follow every thread, but this has been going on for years, the people are well known, they keep derailing thread after thread (see list of threads), and the warnings haven’t worked.
viewtopic.php?p=1213583#p1213583

Aerodynamics are obviously complicated and our understanding of them keeps evolving (see discs, tubercles, rim/tire interactions, steering stability, etc.) so these threads *would* serve a great place to share new information and clarifications, but instead they turn into pages and pages of defense of the very concept.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:50 am 
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And so as to not contribute anything to the thread and hopefully spur discussion, here's something you may have missed if you don't hang out on Slowtwitch:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8RrY_ ... llUjQ/view

An independent/forum funded test between some of the faster traditional frames (though in it's UCI illegal Tri setup) and some of the new beam/disc frames. The P5-X is clearly fast despite the discs and storage options.I'd love to see rotational drag factored in as well, since more spokes + non-radial lacing will have some effect, maybe small? Maybe the crazy shapes are required to make up for any aero penalty of the disc... will the Y-Foil make a return to the road :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:36 am 
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RyanH wrote:
The problem is that there's a certain group of the same people that keep coming into these threads to debate the merits of an aero frame with zero intention of learning anything or being constructive.


So we cannot debate the 'merits' of an aero frame in this forum. Glad we know...

I find it really sad that in our forum a lot of people, including the mods, believe that the marketing brochures of Trek, Cervelo and Specialized or the 'scientific' tests done by some magazines are informing us and making us wiser about cycling aerodynamics.
It is also frustrating that a few members keep on accusing us that we are against aero while we have repeatedly answered that we are only against scientism, simplistic tests and misguiding results.
It is unbelievable, at the end, that many people do not want to accept the experience provided by actual pro teams in real conditions (racing at the top level) but keep on referencing to imaginary groups of riders, ideal laboratory conditions and random comparative tests done by people who just ride for fan and their only aim is to be faster on the next Strava segment.

IMHO it is very constructive to resist all the silly trends that are promoted by industry in order to sell more. Do you want to discuss aero? Do it in a serious way. Do not just reproduce BS claims which have never been tested or controlled as true because these are usually highly deceptive.
If this forum has turned into an undercover marketing department for aero frames and components we better know. Otherwise guiding debates to pro-aero directions, restricting different opinions or deleting critical comments is just unacceptable. This is not what a forum is about.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:57 pm 
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kgt wrote:
So we cannot debate the 'merits' of an aero frame in this forum. Glad we know...


Are you telling me you can't comprehend the difference between discussing the merits of aero frames and discussing particular bikes or test results?

There have been discussions about the merits of aero equipment and you're more than welcome to dig one up.

If you come to every other discussion (reread the title and OP) with the same rehashed argument you offer nothing but noise. It's not about discouraging debate, it's about knowing when the appropriate time for that debate is. Keeping threads relatively on topic isn't a bad thing.

It's like saying tubulars are better when people are comparing clinchers. Even if you know you are right you just come off as an ass inserting your position where it isn't wanted.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:02 pm 
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BRM wrote:
Aero on roadrace bikes are overrated anyway. The influance on a road race or road trip can be ignored. Aero related components for road race bikes are mainly to bring something new to consumers in a way that it triggers sales for manufacturers.

mrfish wrote:
If you wanted to buy a top aero bike, slap on an existing pair of wheels and change nothing else then only ride in a straight line into the wind, then the test results are fairly valid and show that you would be just as (un)competitive on any of the bikes, which we know already from watching the cycling on TV as different people win races.

GothicCastle wrote:
The only thing sillier than taking these test results seriously are the people who think they need an aero bike.

tikka wrote:
Might be a deciding factor for some, and that's fine, but for 90% of amateur riders who don't race this supports just riding what you feel best on and brings you most joy, aero or not.

3Pio wrote:
AERO is something u should believe what they claim and for me it's jurt marketing.. Dont make any sense [...] I reread the whole thread, and i must agree with BRM and KGT about Aero..

AJS914 wrote:
think we can all stipulate that aero benefits are real. It's just that they are unnecessary for 99% of riders.

thePrince wrote:
So yeah, marketing spin on the aero, and on the disc.

mrgray wrote:
couldn't we just have castigation of transgressions rather than comment removal? i mean who cares if some posts are slightly off topic etc. where is the unfettered discussion supposed to occur if not here?.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:17 pm 
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No one said it's just you.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 pm 
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But some members, like you, think that they can decide who has the right to post and who does not...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:41 pm 
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I'd like to see that quote. Be sure not to quote out of context.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:49 pm 
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I changed my mine. I don't care. You will continue to misread what fits your argument and cry victim anyway.

I won't further contribute to the devolution of this thread. Mods know the drill and if they delete/ban due to the posts like above you won't hear any complaints from me. Reading comprehension is part of the standard that should be set here.

Sorry guys, I'll catch you at a more interesting discussion.

:beerchug:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:43 am 
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Answering to personal attacks is boring. Just a link to a good and honest read:

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/an-expl ... w-process/

"Thus, economic considerations play an important role in deciding whether we carry out any kind of lab testing, however we don’t see much point in carrying out a battery of tests when there is only one sample provided for review. After all, the cornerstone of any reliable and meaningful lab test is a determination of sample variation, which cannot be achieved in the absence of multiple samples. There is another challenge associated with lab tests, namely the relationship that those tests have with the real-world experience. Riding and racing a bike is a multi-faceted experience that has yet to be reduced to a finite number of measurable traits. Indeed, our understanding of cycling has barely progressed beyond the point were the fundamentals are understood so the relevance of any measurable trait — be it weight, stiffness or aerodynamic drag — remains open to interpretation (and sometimes fierce debate). That isn’t to say that such information is worthless, but we do not see it being any more reliable or credible than an honest account of the bike’s performance."

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:13 am 
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Okay, you win. Please go away.


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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:13 am 


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