Shimano R9100-P Powermeter

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
mds
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 pm
Location: California

by mds

Thank you very much kwakekeham and PinaF8. This gives me a new avenue to investigate and discuss with SRM and Shimano.
2009 Look 595

by Weenie


mds
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 pm
Location: California

by mds

kwakekeham, check out the tab "Bicycle Power" on the ANT+ Device Profile page https://www.thisisant.com/developer/ant-plus/device-profiles. More info on the power message types. I am trying to download the complete documentation, but it looks like I need to be registered first.
2009 Look 595

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Watching this thread makes me hope that the R9100-P will finally be really available....

mds
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 pm
Location: California

by mds

Is anyone doing a zero offset with a Garmin? When I do this, I always see an offset of 5050, no matter the temperature. I expected the offset to vary a little bit (like my previous SRM 7900 PowerMeter did), but the value reported by the Garmin is always the same. Is this expected? (The LED on the Shimano does blink, so I do know that the zero offset is actually happening.)
2009 Look 595

TurboKoo
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:55 pm

by TurboKoo

It’s designed like that so you know everything is ok.

cunn1n9
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:24 am

by cunn1n9

mds wrote:Is anyone doing a zero offset with a Garmin? When I do this, I always see an offset of 5050, no matter the temperature. I expected the offset to vary a little bit (like my previous SRM 7900 PowerMeter did), but the value reported by the Garmin is always the same. Is this expected? (The LED on the Shimano does blink, so I do know that the zero offset is actually happening.)


Just do it with the button on the crank. So much easier.


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ipenguinking
Posts: 466
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:14 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal

by ipenguinking

cunn1n9 wrote:Just do it with the button on the crank. So much easier.

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Exactly. That's one of the features I really like about this Shimano Powermeter. Instead of going thru layers of menu in the head unit. My pre-ride routine now includes spinning the crankarms to 12 and 6 o'clock, pressing the button while putting on my shoes. It is so easy and quick comparing the Pioneer I had previously. The Pioneer unit requires zeroing left and right separately which takes couple minutes using the not so friendly Pioneer head unit.

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Conza
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Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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by Conza

ipenguinking wrote:
cunn1n9 wrote:Just do it with the button on the crank. So much easier.

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Exactly. That's one of the features I really like about this Shimano Powermeter. Instead of going thru layers of menu in the head unit. My pre-ride routine now includes spinning the crankarms to 12 and 6 o'clock, pressing the button while putting on my shoes. It is so easy and quick comparing the Pioneer I had previously. The Pioneer unit requires zeroing left and right separately which takes couple minutes using the not so friendly Pioneer head unit.


Thinks like this add up for me. I'm like... 300 rides a year, 5 years life on the bike at least, 1500 rides... difference in price between pioneer and Shimano ($700 for moi).

That 1500 rides; if lets assume it's 1min for both (1,500min = 25 hours).

= $28 per hour ($.46 a minute).

Assuming it actually takes 2min to calibrate ($.23).

So; would I rather pay 25-50 cents to just get going, or save that and waste a few minutes?

:o :lol:
It's all about the adventure :o .

cunn1n9
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:24 am

by cunn1n9

Conza wrote:
ipenguinking wrote:
cunn1n9 wrote:Just do it with the button on the crank. So much easier.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly. That's one of the features I really like about this Shimano Powermeter. Instead of going thru layers of menu in the head unit. My pre-ride routine now includes spinning the crankarms to 12 and 6 o'clock, pressing the button while putting on my shoes. It is so easy and quick comparing the Pioneer I had previously. The Pioneer unit requires zeroing left and right separately which takes couple minutes using the not so friendly Pioneer head unit.


Thinks like this add up for me. I'm like... 300 rides a year, 5 years life on the bike at least, 1500 rides... difference in price between pioneer and Shimano ($700 for moi).

That 1500 rides; if lets assume it's 1min for both (1,500min = 25 hours).

= $28 per hour ($.46 a minute).

Assuming it actually takes 2min to calibrate ($.23).

So; would I rather pay 25-50 cents to just get going, or save that and waste a few minutes?

:o :lol:


Well to zero the shimano pm with the button on the crank takes literally 5s max. One of the best things about it


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ms6073
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Location: Houston, Texas

by ms6073

With the 'Prompt for calibration' feature of the Garmin Edge series, the SRM zero-offset routine can be done as you roll out to start a ride, but pushing a button still sounds a lot easier.
Michael - The Anaerobic Threshold is neither...

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TonyM
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by TonyM

This feature of zero calibration done by pushing a button on the DA sounds good to me. Much better than the Stages via Garmin!! Otherwise I think the best is the P2M automatic calibration.

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ms6073
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Location: Houston, Texas

by ms6073

TonyM wrote:Otherwise I think the best is the P2M automatic calibration.

Garmin has an option to Auto Calibrate as well, but some have found that to be problematic. I have personally seen it start the auto-calibration process during which I start pedaling at high load, which yields a completely inaccurate offset, for which one is left wondering why the Garmin is displaying a 1/3 of the expected power output during the next sustained high power effort. :noidea:
Michael - The Anaerobic Threshold is neither...

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TonyM
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by TonyM

ms6073 wrote:
TonyM wrote:Otherwise I think the best is the P2M automatic calibration.

Garmin has an option to Auto Calibrate as well, but some have found that to be problematic. I have personally seen it start the auto-calibration process during which I start pedaling at high load, which yields a completely inaccurate offset, for which one is left wondering why the Garmin is displaying a 1/3 of the expected power output during the next sustained high power effort. :noidea:


Thanks for the info! :thumbup:
I just see it in my Garmin Edge 820. Actually I never tried it before but I might give it a try next time I use my Stages on my MTB.

mds
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 pm
Location: California

by mds

kwakekeham wrote:That breakdown is interesting.

There are 4 power pages in ANT+. Basic (everyone, mandatory), Crank Torque (cranks, arms, pedals), Wheel Torque (Powertap hub only) and Crank Torque Frequency (SRM only). Everyone must have at a minimum basic pages, and almost all use 1 of the 3 others with every 4th page is basic to maintain backwards compatibility with simpler head units -- least that was the idea. Basic pages are also the only place balance is found. It's a violation of ANT+ spec to include multiple option pages and it wouldn't have certified. So 1 + basic.

So based on what has been shown so far I would guess that the Shimano uses Crank Torque pages. Since SRM only has to deal with Crank Torque Frequency in their own products, when connecting another meter it's likely dropping back to Basic pages. I don't have a PC8 so can't check.

The possibility is that either the Shimano PM is not encoding basic pages properly or the SRM head unit is not decoding them correctly.

Also, when testing, what a Garmin records is NOT what it displays. They have different requirements. The specific example the Garmin Edge engineer used at the ANT+ symposium a few years ago when I was there was to imagine going down a hill and you stop pedaling, when you look down you want to see what your cadence was not zero -- so it holds it for a few seconds even though it knows the data is stagnant and not changing. What is displayed in all Garmin head units is filtered, what is recorded on the newer (510/810 and newer) follows good guidelines for proper recording.

These spikes should be easy to track down using the ANT+ development software because it can decode both pages unlike a head unit. My guess is the PM and not the SRM head unit. Likely escaped because nobody saw it in crank torque pages.

kwakekeham, I licensed the ANT+ Adopter SDK MacOS to log the raw ANT+ data stream from my FC-R9100-P, and now have more information concerning the 64sec power spike issue with my SRM PC8. My plan is to document and forward my analysis to Shimano and SRM within a few days.

FYI, FC-R9100-P acts as an ANT+ Power-Only Sensor, and exclusively uses the ANT+ Standard Power-Only Main Data Page at ~2Hz to encode power, cadence, and pedal contributions.

FC-R9100-P also transmits the required Common Data Pages and several Optional Data Pages.
Last edited by mds on Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
2009 Look 595

by Weenie


mds
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 pm
Location: California

by mds

cunn1n9 wrote:
mds wrote:Is anyone doing a zero offset with a Garmin? When I do this, I always see an offset of 5050, no matter the temperature. I expected the offset to vary a little bit (like my previous SRM 7900 PowerMeter did), but the value reported by the Garmin is always the same. Is this expected? (The LED on the Shimano does blink, so I do know that the zero offset is actually happening.)


Just do it with the button on the crank. So much easier.


My reason to use the head is to see the offset value. As I mentioned, I always see 5050.

Suppose I were to stand on one or both pedals at 3/9 o'clock and do a zero-offset. Would I still see 5050?
2009 Look 595

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