Colnago C40 and Campag Overtorque Chainset

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campagowlo
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:05 pm

by campagowlo

I've got an itch which I might scratch. I've always wanted a C40 and I've found one in good condition and the paintscheme I want OOF. I would really like to use my overtorque chain set with it. The C40 has an Italian bb. Can i use the thm Italian bb cups with my overtorque chainset?

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1901
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

They look OK. Any BB386evo bearing will work with OT.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

by Weenie


alistaird
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

campagowlo wrote:I've got an itch which I might scratch. I've always wanted a C40 and I've found one in good condition and the paintscheme I want OOF. I would really like to use my overtorque chain set with it. The C40 has an Italian bb. Can i use the thm Italian bb cups with my overtorque chainset?


I have my Colnago E1 with Italian BB working with an Overtorque chain set. It is not straightforward and Graeme on here is clearly the expert. But my experience may be helpful.

I could not find an Overtorque BB for an Italian Threaded BB (though Graeme assured me they were made at some point - just none left in stock.) You can still find English BB for Overtorque - but note that the width of the BB is 2mm greater in an Italian over and English. This was important in my setup. I found some Tune BB cups for a 30mm axle and used these but this does present 2 challenges:

    1. There is no room for the 'adjustable' spacer in this set up
    2. Given the lack of room behind the NDS crank arm, I had to modify the removal tool slightly to fit behind the crank arm.

Now the Tune BB bearing does not require any pre-load and the challenge is getting the correct spacing on the NDS Crank such that it seats correctly with no gap as per the 'screwdriver' test in the instructions - whilst also having no free play. Too many spacers and the cranks will bind and not enough and there will be free play. I bought a number of 30mm spacers of variety of thicknesses but settled wasn't 100% happy with the solution. So I used a 30mm wavy washer in the end and about 0.5 mm of spacers (from memory). This creates an amount of bearing pre-load but similar to a Ultra-Torque type set up which would be fine with the Tune bearings and no free play.

The other challenge is that this gives a slightly unequal Q between the cranks so I use a 1mm pedal washers on the NDS to equal it up - Not that I can feel it but it just gives a little bit more heel clearance when pedaling.

Because there is less space behind the NDS Crank I found the removal tool wouldn't quite fit behind the crank so I had to shave a bit off it to get it to slide in - doesn't really affect the tool - but it's the only way to get the crank arm off - so was required. With this slight modification it made the experimentation with the spacing much easier :beerchug:

I went with the Tune BB because they looked to be the thinnest I could find. There are a few alternatives as well and there have been other successful fittings of OverTorque and Italian BBs if you do some research on the WWW. I think it was Fairwheel Bike's Blog or similar that had some details of other successful OverTorque and Italian BB installations.

Good luck and the OT Cranks are great so well worth the effort IMHO.

Just let me know if you'd like any more information or photos...

A

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1901
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

OP had found BB386evo Italian cups which should work with OT, he just didn't post the link http://www.starbike.com/en/thm-carbones-bearing-cups-for-clavicula/

This type of BB cup looks extremely rare as my other searches failed to find anything.

I guess I couldn't really follow allstaird's description. There's more difference between Italian and English than just BB width, so he lost me.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

alistaird
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

bikerjulio wrote:OP had found BB386evo Italian cups which should work with OT, he just didn't post the link http://www.starbike.com/en/thm-carbones-bearing-cups-for-clavicula/

This type of BB cup looks extremely rare as my other searches failed to find anything.

I guess I couldn't really follow allstaird's description. There's more difference between Italian and English than just BB width, so he lost me.


Apologies if I lost you on my description - it was written for someone who had done a few OT installs.

These were the BB cups I used:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/black-series-by ... cket-cups/

As I said, the challenge I found was that there was not enough room for the 2mm expandable spacer on the NDS so I needed a different solution as the Italian BB was 2mm wider than an English BB. Of course YMMV...

A

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bikerjulio
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Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

You seem to have some misunderstanding nevertheless.

Although Italian and English threaded frames are 2mm different in width, the difference in overall width is eliminated by the cups themselves. So, to the crank it makes no difference whatsoever.

If there was a real difference, then we would have to have both English and Italian cranksets, wouldn't we?

Although they don't say so the Tune cranks look to be BB386evo compatible since their description stresses their standardness.

And since Overtorque is also BB386evo compatible, I'm still not getting what the problem is. It should work with the BB OP referenced.

As a ps to all this, BB386evo was developed and promoted by FSA. Because of the "not invented here" syndrome, no other manufacturer of oversize 30 mm spindle cranks wants to call them that, Campagnolo, Tune, Rotor etc etc. But that is what they are.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

alistaird
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

I'm no expert as you point out, but the initial install of my OT cranks with the Tune bearings on the E1 Italian BB was done by a fully Campagnolo trained mechanic who also could not fit the 2mm adjustable washer as there is insufficient space.

He also checked the spec of my BB and ensured the faces were parallel. I'd love to hear from someone who has fitted an OT Crank to an Italian BB frame with the 2mm adjustable spacer...

A

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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

I "think" I know what @allistaird is trying to explain. Overtorque is different from the Utlratorque in that there is no wavy washer in an undoctored installation. It uses a mechanical preload which is achieved by the "2mm adjustable spacer". I'm thinking if the cups aren't specific to Overtorque, then that adjustable spacer might get essentially buried in the cups with no access to set the preload. It's been awhile since I've looked at one of these, and it doesn't look like it's something that will be further developed by Campagnolo, at least for now. Probably a "just in case" product in the event that 30mm spindles took off. They haven't. Shimano is sticking to their 24mm and Campy is really continuing on as usual with utlratorque. If I were the OP I would try to sell the crank he has to someone with a frame better designed for it, and just get an Ultratorque crank.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1901
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

This was the THM bearing that OP referenced. Still looks fine to me.

Image
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

alistaird
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

bikerjulio wrote:This was the THM bearing that OP referenced. Still looks fine to me.

Image


I agree, I'm sure this will work, just that it may need a wavy washer instead of the 2mm expanding spacer. In either case IMHO this will be great on the C40...

A

campagowlo
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:05 pm

by campagowlo

Thanks for all the detailed responses.

Alastair - thank you for such a detailed explanation. I know exactly what you mean re space on nds. The expanding ring is such a clever design.

So the upshot is that it should work but I will need to play around with wavy washers.

I really like the overtorque design. 30 mm axle, no sketchy Hirsch coupling axle. Build will be campag record 10 sp, overtorque chainset, itm millennium strada bars and 13 cm stem, smud saddle and post, debadged bontrager x lite tubulars with veloflex carbons.

alistaird
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

I'll try and take a few photos of my solution later.

A

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alistaird
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

And here is a quick couple of photos. You can see there is about 1mm of space on the NDS.

Also I seem to remember measuring the spindle and it was 85 or 86mm up to the crank splines. So 70mm for the BB plus 2 bearings at 7mm means about 1mm space to fill. There are two bearing seals as well so I think I ended up with the thinnest soccer I has an the wavy washer. Then tightening the crank to satisfy the screwdriver test compressed the washer nicely. The cranks would then do about 3 revolutions which I felt was fine for brand new bearings.

HTH.

AImageImage

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by Weenie


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