Why no love for direct mount rim brake?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yes, I'm not yet anywhere close to being a road disc guy, but if I were, I'd be plunking down for the Campagnolo option right now.

cunn1n9
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by cunn1n9

Calnago wrote:
XCProMD wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:33 pm
They thought there was the possibility of DM becoming the standard for rim brakes.
@XCProMD... I'm now of the mind that you may be more correct than I was on this subject. So far, I think the Campagnolo offering in the Direct Mount brake department is kind of subpar compared to the quality and function of their standard skeleton brakes. I used them, tested them with various wheels, and have some new conclusions regarding Direct Mount brakes in general, and some specific conclusions about Campy's offering.

First the general stuff. The widest rims I have are Campy Boras at 24.2mm at the brake track. And I still use standard mount rims as well (odler Boras and Ambrosio Nemesis). For these rims I actually prefer the standard mount brakes... the geometry is such that they work very well, are simple, only need one hole (and non threaded) in a brake bridge or fork crown to mount... basically all the stuff that I've already rambled on about. Basically they are good and I questioned the need for something differernt.
But now we have wider rims... some really quite wide. In these cases, I think Direct Mount brakes are the better option. Not so much for height clearance, but becasue of the geometry of the brake arms and the pivot points on the stays. I just think they're better able to handle a rim of more significant width. So, there's the case for Direct Mounts. I'm still not sure if the Direct Mounts do as good a job as standard mounts for rims in the 20mm-24mm width range however. If you need height clearance however, for like 30mm tires or something, then I don't think there's any question that you should be looking at disc brakes.

I know i've raved about the new Shimano 9100 standard mount caliper brakes. They just didn't work so well with my Campy levers and rims even only as wide as my Campy Boras. I wanted to use them on my Koppenberg with my Campy setup. Didn't really work out. But I'm wondering if that combo would be more successful with a wider rim. Reason I'm saying this is that after testing and tearing apart the Campy direct mount offering, I am less than impressed. I think its overall quality is subpar compared to their current skeleton brakes. The rolling bushing between the two brake arms is pretty much completely exposed to the elements, whereas in the skeleton brakes the bearings and/or bushings are all very nicely sealed up and operate very smoothly. Basically, I think Shimano's hammered the rim brake market with their latest offerings and Campy seems to have dropped the ball. So perhaps they really did view the development of the DM brake as something they kind of "had to do" just in case it became a standard, as @XCProMd was suggesting earlier. And their disc offerings seem to be among the best, if not the best, road disc brake system out there, so Campy obviously spent some serious time and effort developing it. I think I've been wrong in assuming that Campagnolo was never behind the idea of disc brakes on the road. I still think they could have just as happily given it an easy passover, but given the trends in the market they seemed to take it serious enough to develop a very good product. Better than very good, excellent. Kudos to them.

Anyway, that's all. The bike I was using for testing all this stuff was a Pinarello K8-S, which ironically had a Campy DM brake caliper in the rear and a Super Record Skeleton brake caliper in the front.

Just thoguht I need to add that update, since I was kind of bashing on Direct Mount brakes becasue I didn't see a need for them. Still don't if you're running standard to a little wider rims. But if you want to go wider and still keep rim brakes... then yeah... DM brakes are problaby the way to go.

Had access to a Pinarello Dogma K8-S for testing out Campy's Direct Mount brake, which was kind of nice because of the DM on the rear and the standard mount on the front. The standard mount was definitely way smoother to operate, but I think that's more a function that the quality of their Direct Mount brake is a little sub-par for lack of a better description. I would like to do the same kind of testing between Shimanos' DM brakes and their Standard Mounts, but from everything I've seen on the Shimano side, they seem to be really almost identical in overall quality.
Image

Lots of clearance on this frame...
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Calnago - I can get a good price on a k8-s as a frameset but will not have a chance to ride. Any feedback on ride quality - compliance, reduction in road buzz, smoothness etc.

Also what is max tyre size that can fit?

Thanks.


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by Weenie


pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Calnago wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:04 pm
Yes, I'm not yet anywhere close to being a road disc guy, but if I were, I'd be plunking down for the Campagnolo option right now.
I saw this today. Ouch! Not good publicity for disk brakes.

Image

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Left knee into the nds of a bike past the back wheel?

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mag
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:23 pm

by mag

Anyone tried the Shimano 9110 DM brakes with Campy levers? I'm also not thrilled by the Campy DM brakes so thinking about some other options...

pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Nefarious86 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:12 pm
Left knee into the nds of a bike past the back wheel?

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From Katie Compton's husband's Twitter account.

What happens when two riders make poor decisions and can’t be patient on the first lap and squeeze Katie into a crash? Disc rotor cut to the bone. Not a happy way to end a great season 😠

10:23 AM - Feb 10, 2018 · Kalmthout, België

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Calnago
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by Calnago

mag wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:31 pm
Anyone tried the Shimano 9110 DM brakes with Campy levers? I'm also not thrilled by the Campy DM brakes so thinking about some other options...
If I had a direct mount brake bike I'd go buy a pair of the Shimano DM brakes and try them out right now. Hmmmm... could this be the lame excuse I need to get a Colnago C64? I've had lamer.

PinaF8
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by PinaF8

Calnago wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:54 pm
mag wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:31 pm
Anyone tried the Shimano 9110 DM brakes with Campy levers? I'm also not thrilled by the Campy DM brakes so thinking about some other options...
If I had a direct mount brake bike I'd go buy a pair of the Shimano DM brakes and try them out right now. Hmmmm... could this be the lame excuse I need to get a Colnago C64? I've had lamer.
I’m currently on a Dura Ace direct mount brakes bc of my bmc slr01. I like it and the actuation is smooth. Installing was a little difficult due to a bolt hiding behind the brake arm. One needs to be careful due to the ease of cross threading during install. Overall I’m very happy.
S-WORKS VENGE 1ST GEN
PINARELLO F8
PINARELLO F10
2018 BMC SLR01

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Calnago
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by Calnago

There’s no doubt the Shimano DM brakes are very good. The question is whether they’d work satisfactorily with Campy levers. I’ve tried the 9100 Standard Mounts with Campy levers on new Boras (24.2mm width at brake track). The results were less than satisfactory. Yet I can use the combination on my standard width ~20mm Nemesis rims and they work ok. That’s initially what prompted me to try the combo on my Koppenberg build but had to abandon that. The different “progressive” natures of the levers pull means that one pulls faster at the beginning versus the end and vice versus with the other lever. Weird, but it seems that as the rims get wider this combo is less likely to work. I haven’t tried the Direct Mounts but my hopes are low since functionality between Shimanos DM and Standard Mount brakes seems almost identical other than how they mount to the frame.

mag
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by mag

Perhaps some other alternatives then? Like Bontrager Speed Stop Pro or the new SRAM S-900... Not that I'd expect them to match Shimano 9110 based on what I could see, but maybe they would perform well with Campy levers.

pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

What about EE DM brakes? I've thought about it for my latest bike build but then their unique looks turned me off, especially when the alternative (Dura Ace 9100) looks so beautifully sculpted. I end up getting the 9100 DM brakes. Plus I worry that the EE DM brakes don't have a great tire clearance the Shimano brakes have.

No wonder my bike is so heavy at 17.5lbs ready-to-ride. I have Dura Ace pedals and brakes, lol.
Last edited by pdlpsher1 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Yeah, the Bontrager Speedstops would likely work if what I've been told is true... that they have a cam type adjuster which means you can set the brakes to work well with either Campy or Shimano levers. They're just so damn industrial looking.

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tommasini
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by tommasini

Nefarious86 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:12 pm
Left knee into the nds of a bike past the back wheel?

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FYI - Right knee into disc...thus makes some sense.

sawyer
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by sawyer

mag wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:31 pm
Anyone tried the Shimano 9110 DM brakes with Campy levers? I'm also not thrilled by the Campy DM brakes so thinking about some other options...

Yes, and it works very well.

I have it on an Aeroad. Note that the pro-teams also ran this set-up pre Campag DMs

It works as good or better than any rim brake combination I've tried. I haven't spent time isolating component performance tbh, but I can assure you this combination works well.
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Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@sawyer... that would be great if true, but I’m skeptical simply because the combo of Campy levers and 9100 Standard Mounts does not work very well, and if the DM’s do work well, that kind of implies that they are designed for different pull rates. Yet they are designed around using the same levers, no? What width rims are you using this combo with if I might ask, measured at the brake track.

by Weenie


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