Why no love for direct mount rim brake?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

The top one, especially if it had the 9100 brake caliper instead.
- fork isn’t “cut out”.
- aesthetics of fork to headtube transition is smooth and aesthetically much nicer. You’re not showing the headtube fork interface in the top one but if you did you’d see the nicer transition from headtube to fork instead of the big “notch”.
- top one is much easier to install, adjust, and maintain.
- but mostly, I know the top one doesn’t have two big threaded blind holes drilled into my frame.
-oh yeah, and I think the top one is lighter in most cases.
Last edited by Calnago on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

You forgot this one :D

- I love Campy and therefore anything with a Shimano logo is crap.

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

Have you seen my Koppenberg? Shimano logos all over the thing. Have you seen my pedals? Best pedals out there. Have you seen my touring bike? Nothing but Shimano. Have you seen my rain bike?... Shimano brake calipers. Need I go on? Credit where credit is due. Nothing wrong with Shimano.

XCProMD
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by XCProMD

They thought there was the possibility of DM becoming the standard for rim brakes.

I get you question my knowledge on what happens at Campagnolo. Nothing I can do about it.

I guess you are aware of Magura’s “Carbotecture” process. There you have a good part of where both companies (and the one I work for) started to share resources.




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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I have seen your Koppenberg but it's got Campy parts on it.

I see DM brakes as truly better than traditional brakes, not because it's the latest trend. Note that I didn't jump on the disk bandwagon when I built up my custom Ti bike :D Disks are fine on a MTB but I find it not necessary on a road bike.

On some traditional brakes such as the Sram Red, the slight pressure from the brake cable onto the brake itself can affect centering and makes the brakes lose centering over time. I have this problem on my Red brakes. There have been a few comments made here on WW regarding this problem in particularly with the Red brakes. On Shimano DM brakes centering will never go off. Once you've adjusted the centering it's set for life.

Btw I like the filed lawyer's tabs on your Koppenberg. I do the same with all of my bikes.

fromtrektocolnago
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by fromtrektocolnago

I'm new to this topic, but having read the comments, I do like that they keep their alignment and allow for tires. For someone not totally sold on disc I like that. Would I upgrade just go get direct mount, probably not but if I needed a new bike, it would be something I consider. The new Colnago C64 is going this route and I'm interested in how they approach
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Trek 5200(ultegra)

pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:58 pm
I'm new to this topic, but having read the comments, I do like that they keep their alignment and allow for tires. For someone not totally sold on disc I like that. Would I upgrade just go get direct mount, probably not but if I needed a new bike, it would be something I consider. The new Colnago C64 is going this route and I'm interested in how they approach
I have nothing against Colnagos but you must do your homework. When I was building up my Ti bike I was looking for a suitable fork with DM brake bosses. The Colnago V1-R fork was an option. I took my caliper with me and visited my LBS to check out the V1-R in person. The V1-R has very poor tire clearance despite the DM brakes. This is because Colnago had located the brake bosses very low on the fork. Trek, on the other hand, mount the bosses way high on their forks so that the brakes are high and clear of the tires. I ended up with the Trek fork. Colnago might have solved the problem with the newer V2-R but buyer beware. Not all DM brake equipped bikes are equal. To makes things even more strange Colnago spec'ed a tire on the V1-R that is labeled as 28mm but only measured 25mm on my caliper. So it seems Colnago knew the tire clearance problem but they wanted to fool their customers with a tire that's labeled as a 28mm.

Here’s a pic of the Trek Domane fork that I have. The tire shown is a Panaracer GravelKing 32mm that measures 30.5mm on a 17C rim. There’s a 3mm clearance on each side. Trek officially lists the clearance on the fork for a 28mm tire because I think the bicycle safety board requires a 5-6mm min clearance. But you can for sure run this tire without too much danger.

Image


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Last edited by pdlpsher1 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

fromtrektocolnago
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by fromtrektocolnago

gotcha, i'm probably not going to pull the trigger but if i did i'd study the reviews and solutions. my c-59 is only 5 years old, way to soon to replace. its' just a baby
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Trek 5200(ultegra)

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Calnago
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by Calnago

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:40 pm
I have seen your Koppenberg but it's got Campy parts on it.

I see DM brakes as truly better than traditional brakes, not because it's the latest trend. Note that I didn't jump on the disk bandwagon when I built up my custom Ti bike Image Disks are fine on a MTB but I find it not necessary on a road bike.

On some traditional brakes such as the Sram Red, the slight pressure from the brake cable onto the brake itself can affect centering and makes the brakes lose centering over time. I have this problem on my Red brakes. There have been a few comments made here on WW regarding this problem in particularly with the Red brakes. On Shimano DM brakes centering will never go off. Once you've adjusted the centering it's set for life.

Btw I like the filed lawyer's tabs on your Koppenberg. I do the same with all of my bikes.
Yes, my Koppenberg has Campy parts on it. But at first I went with the Dura Ace 9100 calipers (it's in the thread), but they just didn't play well with the Campy levers. In the end I went with Chorus calipers because they actually have a little bit more clearance than either Record or Super Record. I was trying out some Veloflex Vlanderen 27mm tubulars. But in the final conclusion to it all, I decided that I prefer the 25mm Arrenbergs or Roubaixs, so after all that I'll be back to Super Record Skeletons. The 9100 calipers are going on my rain bike as I can fit full fenders underneath them with a 25mm tire installed.

Your posts in this thread are like deja vu from the Direct Mount Derailleur Hanger thread. You say the DM brakes are better but cannot come up with a single concrete reason why. Nevermind... I know you'll "never go back". But isn't your ti bike a tandem? If so, I would have thought that might be a perfect application for disc brakes over rim brakes.
Still, any time you want to explain the "mechanical advantage" to Direct Mount brakes I'm all ears. I've asked several times now, so either you don't know or there isn't one, or both. Oh, and that point about once you set them, they're "set for life". Yes, of course they are.

The SRAM caliper brake issues are well know as you mention. That's why I said I'd give them a pass if they want to start developing DM brakes at this point, since their current rim offerings are relatively sub par compared to Campy or Shimano.

Here's some more pics of the 9100 standard mount calipers... side view as you seem to prefer (does your bike travel sideways?)... anyway, I do like the Shimano 9100 brakes, I think they are the best caliper brakes out there at the moment, whether you choose the standard mount or the direct mount. They both function pretty similarly, but I still prefer the standard mounts for all the reasons I've already mentioned...

Nice looking brakes from any angle... and no notch in the fork is necessary... I like the flow of smooth lines...
Image

And a couple from the other side for your amusement... I love the aesthetics, and these things are super beefy... just try to twist them side to side... good luck...
Image

Image

And you know how I mentioned SRAM is going on about their technology to limit "fork splay" or whatever they want to call it. Well Shimano has got it too, but probably just doesn't even want to bring up the subject of fork splay; it's such a negative thing to talk about when you have each brake arm mounted on opposing stays. Ha... but even though there is no fork splay with a standard mount brake, they still have taken steps to ensure that the entire caliper is super stiff. To show the built in "brake booster", I've taken out the wheel and squeezed the calipers with my hand to show off the drilled out brake booster. So much stiffer than the 105's I have on my rain bike at the moment...
Image

Why anyone would feel the need for DM brakes is beyond me given that these are now available. Unfortunately, for the likes of Colnago, who is about to release their new C64, they had to decide which way to go regarding brake choices long ago, before discs had really taken hold, and certainly before Shimano had shown how great of a standard mount caliper they could design... with every bit the clearance that their direct mount brake has. I hope it doesn't prove to be another V1-R blunder where they tried to second guess which way the market is going and placed the brake behind the bottom bracket just as companies like Trek were abandoning it. D'oh... hate when that happens, but I kinda think that’s exactly what happened. I will be sticking to standard mount brakes and if I ever change from those, I will be going to discs as Direct Mount rim brakes have nothing to offer me in their current state. I just wish Campy would update their existing standard mounts a bit.
Last edited by Calnago on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:34 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
Calnago
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by Calnago

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:58 pm
I'm new to this topic, but having read the comments, I do like that they keep their alignment and allow for tires. For someone not totally sold on disc I like that. Would I upgrade just go get direct mount, probably not but if I needed a new bike, it would be something I consider. The new Colnago C64 is going this route and I'm interested in how they approach
I do concur with @Pdlpsher1 about being wary of thinking that just because you have one or the other brake types, that adequate tire clearance is a given. Take my Koppenberg for example. Originally Ii wanted it to replace my Emonda rain bike, but surprise... while the front fork has scads of clearance, the rear did not and in fact had less clearance than the Emonda in the rear. So using it with full fenders was kind of not going to work. A blessing in disguise I suppose, because now that I have the Koppenberg, I'd hate to have it relegated to a permanent life of fendered bad weather riding.
Oh, and regarding your C59 of five years... you don't replace a bike like that, you just get it a new sibling.
:beerchug:

pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

This discussion on non-DM vs. DM brakes can be boiled down to this. The bicycle has been invented for a long time. In the current state the bikes are great. If we are going to further improve what we already have it won't be revolutionary but rather evolutionary. I didn't say that DM brakes are revolutionary. I see them as an improvement over the existing brakes, although Calnago would disagree. It all came down to if I had a choice between the two I picked the one that looked a bit better. The aero and mechanical advantages, however small they might be, are just icing on the cake. When I was building up my Ti bike I had a choice. The DM brake choice didn't cost me anything extra and now it appears that the standard has Sram on notice so I won't have to worry about obsolescence either. If anyone doesn't see the point of DM brakes that's fine too. We have fine choices in regular rim and disk brakes.

ps the 9100 DM brakes also have the 'booster' shown on the 9100 non-DM brakes. I also have the 9000 DM brakes and they lacked the boosters. However on the 9000 I never noticed any issues with fork splay. To be honest I can't tell the difference between the 9000 and 9100 DM brakes.

basilic
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Location: Geneva, Switzerland

by basilic

I wonder if someone would come up with DM mid-reach brakes, for 32mm tires, or 28 plus fender. As the lever arm increases, it would make sense to me that having a fixed pivot on each side might be advantageous (not an engineer, just guessing). i have TRP 957s and they're fine, but not as good as short reach shimano.
Of course then one would need a fork to go with it.

Hawkwood
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by Hawkwood

A bit off-topic, but back around 1978 I saw a Peugeot `team bike' in a local bike shop and it had direct mount gold anodised Mafac centre-pulls, it looked really cool.

sawyer
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by sawyer

I've found DM calipers to be an improvement ... not so much in stopping power or modulation, but more that they are perfectly aligned all the time, and micro adjustments are easier.

It's a small improvement but a real one ... unlike so much cycling industry BS
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

by Weenie


XCProMD
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by XCProMD

Hawkwood wrote:A bit off-topic, but back around 1978 I saw a Peugeot `team bike' in a local bike shop and it had direct mount gold anodised Mafac centre-pulls, it looked really cool.
In fact, it was the standard for commuting or alpine bikes. DM is just a review of that concept.


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