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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:55 pm 
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Location: Sunny So Cal
Not wanting to get into who made better stuff. But those brand new Pinerello F10 frames sitting in my LBS have a big 'made in italy' sticker. I'm sure many people here know where are those frames made.

The EU law is base on added value. Therefore the more expensive workers in Italy who finished the frame with paint and decals do added more 'value' to the frame than those cheaper workers in China who spent more times assembling the tube. Just saying......


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Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:55 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:00 am 
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And if an Italian company did manufacture in China but labeled the products "made in Italy", what is the likelihood of an effective enforcement from the Italian authorities?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:18 am 
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Location: Wilmington, DE
RussellS wrote:
Valbrona wrote:
The European Union has laws where sellers must state the origin of their products, or where they are mostly made.


Assuming Europe "Made In" laws work the same as US "Made In" laws, its very possible to have a Made In Italy sticker on a product manufactured in China. The law says the country of origin is where a majority of the product's cost comes from. So its easy to have an entire product manufactured in China using Chinese parts and labor. All very cheap. Then ship it to Italy on a Chinese ship, and have the final polishing and coatings applied in Italy using Italian labor and box it in Italy. The Italian finishing and labor is more than the Chinese costs so it can officially and legally say "Made In Italy". Even though everyone knows its made in China using Chinese parts and Chinese labor. More of the input cost comes from Italy so its "Made In Italy". Not sure how marketing and advertising costs apply. They would be done by Italians and likely allocated to the products so they would add to the Italian costs to make it even more "Made In Italy".


'Country of Origin' and 'Made in XXX' are two different things, at least in the USA. US law for 'Made in USA' is extremely strict and a product with foreign content of any sort is very difficult to justify as 'Made in USA' without any qualifying statements. 'Country of Origin' is assessed by the last 'substantial transformation' which is used by the Customs Service and is a much looser standard. If an item is to be labeled Made in USA, it must pass the far stricter rules. COO is only really used for duty assessment and as such isn't typically visible to consumers. You can read more here: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... a-standard


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:17 am 
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joejack951 wrote:
'Country of Origin' and 'Made in XXX' are two different things, at least in the USA. US law for 'Made in USA' is extremely strict and a product with foreign content of any sort is very difficult to justify as 'Made in USA' without any qualifying statements. 'Country of Origin' is assessed by the last 'substantial transformation' which is used by the Customs Service and is a much looser standard. If an item is to be labeled Made in USA, it must pass the far stricter rules. COO is only really used for duty assessment and as such isn't typically visible to consumers. You can read more here: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... a-standard


Quoting US regulations is completely irrelevant to this topic. At the end of the day plenty of companies across all industries manufacture products in the Far East only to perform the final step of the process locally whilst slapping a "made in x" label on the product. These practices are very common in fashion (e.g. shirts- buttons and labels stitched in italy or shoes where the final polish and insoles are completed in Italy). The whole "made in" thing is a joke anyway- judge a product on its quality, not country of manufacture. Much more money is being invested in production techniques and QC in Asia whilst western companies are sweating old equipment to try and keep costs low. Before you jump in and say "but company y is investing heavily in local production" obviously there will always be exceptions.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Antoine wrote:
On the other end around 40000 chinese are working in Tuscany , making "made in Italia" clothes.
Working conditions are as bad as they are in China, they don't pay taxes and the profit goes to China.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2017/03/30/01003-20170330ARTFIG00255-chasse-aux-clandestins-a-prato-le-plus-grand-chinatown-d-italie.php

https://www.pressreader.com/france/le-figaro/20170331/281535110829533


This is utterly disturbing. Consumerism is the driving force! We buy he crap we don't need for temporarily satisfaction. Sooner than later we pollute the planet. If we all take the minimalist avenue, the demand of goods will drop. On this note, overpopulation is the root cause on cheap labor. China is the prime example.

Automation is next big wave in production factories. What will happen when robots take over manual labor performed by humans?

I'm a firm believer that you can enjoy cycling as a minimalist. This sport has been around for ~ 130 years with simplicity.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Location: Canada
tids0009 wrote:
Will all campy now be made in China? I received this water bottle-carrier and bottle last night to notice the quality of the box was not the same, then I saw 'Made in China'. Opened it up, looked ok, then I weighed it, 29 grams for the cage, weighed the Italian version and that was 20 grams!!!!!!!! NOT HAPPY!



I have a hard time believing that the super record bottle cage weigh 20 grams. I have a pair labeled made in Italy and they are 27.7gr. and 27.9gr. The one you received at 20gr. is not the norm.
The older record bottle cages were 18gr. , but they were always breaking at the bottom tab because it was so thin.

Unfortunately it is what it is. the newer bottle cages are made in China. Also steel bearings , cups, cones found in Zonda, Eurus, etc... Lower end wheels like Khamsin, Vento come from Taiwan. Even Zonda are labeled Taiwan on the box. All the carbon components and wheels are still made in Europe either in Romania or Italy. Romania is same quality as Italy. Campy engineers travel mostly everyday to the Romanian factory. I've seen Bora boxes labeled made in Romania and Italy. Same thing for cranksets, shifters, derailleur. Same thing for Fulcrum wheels. They are labeled made in Italy or Romania, but for some unknown reason , the zero carbon is labeled made in China. Are they gonna start sending more carbon production to China?? I don't remember if it was two or three years ago, Campy workers went on strike because they didn't want Campy to send production to the far east.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:31 pm 
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mpulsiv wrote:
I'm a firm believer that you can enjoy cycling as a minimalist. This sport has been around for ~ 130 years with simplicity.

Hence my disdain for digital/quartz watches and electric shifting on bikes.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:38 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Posts: 479
Location: Cantabria
Mr.Gib wrote:
And if an Italian company did manufacture in China but labeled the products "made in Italy", what is the likelihood of an effective enforcement from the Italian authorities?


Well, the Guardia di Finanza is really picky.

The company I work for has a two stocks in Italy. One of the products we make (among hundreds of references) is marked "Made in USA" since the American goverment warned us that it had to be that way according to the law in the other side of the pond.

The final mnufacturing stage in that product happens in Sweden and out company is Swedish. We invoice that product from Sweden. When the Guardia di Finanza noticed we had to go to great extents to document every single value added addition of the product. And it was actually our stockist (an Italian company) that was risking a huge fine.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Posts: 479
Location: Cantabria
ferrarista wrote:
tids0009 wrote:
Will all campy now be made in China? I received this water bottle-carrier and bottle last night to notice the quality of the box was not the same, then I saw 'Made in China'. Opened it up, looked ok, then I weighed it, 29 grams for the cage, weighed the Italian version and that was 20 grams!!!!!!!! NOT HAPPY!



I have a hard time believing that the super record bottle cage weigh 20 grams. I have a pair labeled made in Italy and they are 27.7gr. and 27.9gr. The one you received at 20gr. is not the norm.
The older record bottle cages were 18gr. , but they were always breaking at the bottom tab because it was so thin.

Unfortunately it is what it is. the newer bottle cages are made in China. Also steel bearings , cups, cones found in Zonda, Eurus, etc... Lower end wheels like Khamsin, Vento come from Taiwan. Even Zonda are labeled Taiwan on the box. All the carbon components and wheels are still made in Europe either in Romania or Italy. Romania is same quality as Italy. Campy engineers travel mostly everyday to the Romanian factory. I've seen Bora boxes labeled made in Romania and Italy. Same thing for cranksets, shifters, derailleur. Same thing for Fulcrum wheels. They are labeled made in Italy or Romania, but for some unknown reason , the zero carbon is labeled made in China. Are they gonna start sending more carbon production to China?? I don't remember if it was two or three years ago, Campy workers went on strike because they didn't want Campy to send production to the far east.


It wasn't exactly like that. We are suppliers to Campagnolo and I visit them at least 3 times a year. Sure they have suppliers that manufacture parts in Asia/China. Actually they have an Italian carbon parts supplier that is manufacturing in China.

All the parts they source from Taiwan come from the same company, that is the contract they have in Asia since the very late 90's.

But they don't have themselves any contract in China at the moment and don't have plans to do it as of now. Actually it is becoming quite common among Italian companies to reshore production from Asia to Italy or some other country in Easter Europe or even Northern Africa.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:27 am 
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Posts: 227
If Campagnolo are going to manufacture things in China I will no longer buy them, I don't want a Ferrari that's made in China, or a Ducati, Vespa or Colnago and I don't want Chinese made, Italian designed parts on my bikes either. The parts might be the same quality, look the same, feel the same but in my opinion it misses the nostalgia and appeal of buying those brands in the first place.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:08 am 
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tids0009 wrote:
If Campagnolo are going to manufacture things in China I will no longer buy them, I don't want a Ferrari that's made in China, or a Ducati, Vespa or Colnago and I don't want Chinese made, Italian designed parts on my bikes either. The parts might be the same quality, look the same, feel the same but in my opinion it misses the nostalgia and appeal of buying those brands in the first place.


You know Ducati builds their most popular selling models in Thailand right?

I find this attitude funny, to me the value isn't in where it's made, the value is in the name and the heritage. In fact the opposite to you it seems. As long as the quality of the product is the same or better I have no issue with where it is manufactured.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:31 am 
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Location: Canada
tids0009 wrote:
If Campagnolo are going to manufacture things in China I will no longer buy them, I don't want a Ferrari that's made in China, or a Ducati, Vespa or Colnago and I don't want Chinese made, Italian designed parts on my bikes either. The parts might be the same quality, look the same, feel the same but in my opinion it misses the nostalgia and appeal of buying those brands in the first place.


Other than the C60, most of the Colnago carbon frames are made in China. I also like the made in Italy, but at the end of the day, business is business. With all the competition, companies like Colnago, Campagnolo try to lower the cost of production. Most of Campy high end stuff are and will still be made in Europe.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:54 am 
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Posts: 227
ferrarista wrote:
tids0009 wrote:
If Campagnolo are going to manufacture things in China I will no longer buy them, I don't want a Ferrari that's made in China, or a Ducati, Vespa or Colnago and I don't want Chinese made, Italian designed parts on my bikes either. The parts might be the same quality, look the same, feel the same but in my opinion it misses the nostalgia and appeal of buying those brands in the first place.


Other than the C60, most of the Colnago carbon frames are made in China. I also like the made in Italy, but at the end of the day, business is business. With all the competition, companies like Colnago, Campagnolo try to lower the cost of production. Most of Campy high end stuff are and will still be made in Europe.


Well if that's the case looks like I will have to stick with buying the top end Colnago C model and top end Campagnolo groupsets in future :)


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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:54 am 


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