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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Hi!

Not sure if it should go to the "wheels" subforum, if so, please move it there.

I own the F8 (size 53) with Campy Super Record (dual pivot) and HED Stinger 4 wheelset. There is no issues with a front wheel but I have some with the rear wheel. The issues are confirmed on the Internet but unfortunately I haven't seen clean solutions.

1) tyre/break - clearance. I use Continental Competition 25mm tubular, there is about 1-1.5mm clearance between the bridge of the brake and top of the tubular. It should be fine, however it's all depends of several issues such as: current pressure, surface and how well the tubular is attached to the rim. There is usually a small "bump" due to valve. And it seems that sometimes I get friction especially in this single spot.

Are there any recommended tubulars (with good quality) in 25mm size (or 24mm) that are compatible with the F8?
What about Vittoria Corsa G+ 25mm? Or at least Conti Force Comp 24mm?

2) rear triangle/wheel - clearance. On the non-drive side the clearance between rim/tubular and the triangle tube is quite critical. I can understand that this is due to asymmetric design of the frame. The left side tube is thicker than the right right. This makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is why it's thicker on the inner side instead of outer. Well maybe to avoid contact shoes with the tube while pedaling, I guess.
Keep in mind I use HEDs (28mm rim width) + 25mm Conti Comp. I guess for shallower rims and tubulars this issue is less strict and probably some could not notice it at all.

Anyway. My serviceman is a bit confused about how true the wheels. Shall the wheel be true as usual (and keep it quite tight on the left side) or it should be retrue to keep it more in the middle between tubes?


I am sure there is already answers for this, Dogma is super popular on the market. How to setup the rear wheel properly to avoid any issues?

Thanks.


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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:20 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Posts: 9
Anyone? I'm preparing for the next roadtrip, I wish to fix this problem before another few thousand kilometers. Especially with correct tubular.
I found that Vittoria Corsa G+ 25mm is 1mm lower than Competition, so probably would be fine. However, it has an inner-latex which is not the best way to go on the road due to loosing pressure overnight. So, looking for something with inner-buthyl, I guess


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 Post subject: Q
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:39 pm 
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The Continental Competitions at 25mm are pretty true to size, not really any different than say a 25mm Veloflex Arrenberg. Tubulars in general will be much more uniform in size when mounted on different rims than clinchers, where the ultimate "size" depends a lot on the internal width of the rim. When you say your tire is hitting the top of the "brake bridge", are you referring to the frame itself, where the brakes are attached to, or the actual brake arms (the skeleton brakes). I haven't used the wide HED rim, but if it's 28mm at the brake track, then that would force the campy calipers open quite wide, and unlike Shimano brakes, the arms actually come down during activation. So under certain circumstances I could actually see them getting too close to the top of the tire.

1.0-1.5mm of clearance at the top is not enough in my opinion. That was the exact clearance I had when running Veloflex Arrenbergs (25mm) on the pre 2015 Boras on my C59 and EPQ. Road debris would get thrown through the fork crown and cause an annoying chatter not to mention scratches, which are going to happen anyway there, but the clearance was just too tight for my liking. With the new Boras, the rim bed was a larger radius as it was designed around 25mm tires, and this was all the change I needed for the tires to sit just a little bit lower and give me clearance of 2.0-2.5mm. And that was all I needed... runs perfectly no chatter, adequate clearance. You still need to get that initial stretch on both sides of the valve stem while mounting to help ensure that you eliminate the "hop" that can occur if you don't.

In your situation, with the wider HED tubular rims, I'm going to presume that the 25mm tubular tires would sit as low as on the new Boras. So, undortunately, I don't see that there's much you can do except to run a bit smaller tire. Veloflex used to make their roubaixs in a 24mm before switching to 25mm, but I doubt you could find any of those now. The other tire, which I haven't tried but heard good things about is the Specialized Turbo Tubular which comes in 24mm and 26mm sizes. But I just reread your post and it seems you don't want anything with a latex innertube. Hmmm... except for the Continental Comps nothing is coming to mind. If you say the Vittorias sit 1mm lower than the Comps, then I think that would give you the extra little bit of clearance you need, but as you say, still a latex inntertube. And Vittorias in my experience seem to cut up pretty easily. I think all things considered I'd give the Specialized tires a look, and just pump up your tires everyday before your ride. Is that such a dealbreaker? Good luck.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:10 pm 
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Posts: 64
FYI Potenza Calipers afford an extra 2-3mm vertical clearance over a Record Dual Pivot rear caliper - For the same bike and brake bridge height.

i Tried it on my Helium SL with Corsa G 25mm (though to be fair they actually measure more like 28mm)

It seems the latest Chorus calipers may be the same as Potenza too in this respect...Perhaps Campag are going to redesign the Record/S Record calipers to follow??


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:13 am 
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Posts: 9
Thanks for the deep responses! I really appreciate it.

Yes, by "brake bridge" I was referring to the brake arms, not the frame itself.

I forgot to mention that this rubbing happens only in one place only. Such like the "hop" is the issue here. But I don't think it's possible to avoid any hoping. The tubular was reattached to verify if this was the issue, but the rubbing hop still exists. Maybe the problem is with my lack of experience with attaching tubular without any hoping? Cause it seems like without any hop it should works on Conti Competition 25mm. It's hard to say now, cause I went for the 3-weeks climbing right after mounting the new bike. So I had to fix it somehow on the road. The only idea that came up to my mind was to rub off brand new brake pads to half, so I could tight up the brake caliper a bit to make more clearance.

So what do you mean by the:
Quote:
You still need to get that initial stretch on both sides of the valve stem while mounting to help ensure that you eliminate the "hop" that can occur if you don't.

I'm not sure if I know this technique.


So, back to the main question about tubulars. The only alternatives with the butyl innertube I found is:
- Continental Force Comp. 24mm
- Tufo S33 Pro 24mm
- Tufo Elite Ride 25mm

I don't know nothing about Tufo, I heard bad stories about rolling resistance but I guess is the same with Conti Competition due to the butyl tube.

I can try go with the Vittoria Corsa G+ 25mm or S-Works Turbo 24mm but still looking for something more durable on trips.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:58 am 
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Posts: 355
Location: The land of Oz
I have the same[similar] issue with my size 50 F8 with Conti comps 25. I am planing to just go back to 22's & 23's. I have a 22mm Conti comp on order & a pair of Veloflex carbons also on order from Starbike. I'm going to sell my unfitted Arnebergs [25's] as it is just not worth the grief for me. I have on previous times fitted a small piece inner tyre liner as a spacer between the bottom of the rear drop out and the top of the hub and that gives an extra .75-1.0 mm of clearance..............

SM

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Ahhh, coffee & carbon


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:53 am 
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xmashx wrote:
Thanks for the deep responses! I really appreciate it.

Yes, by "brake bridge" I was referring to the brake arms, not the frame itself.

I forgot to mention that this rubbing happens only in one place only. Such like the "hop" is the issue here. But I don't think it's possible to avoid any hoping. The tubular was reattached to verify if this was the issue, but the rubbing hop still exists. Maybe the problem is with my lack of experience with attaching tubular without any hoping? Cause it seems like without any hop it should works on Conti Competition 25mm. It's hard to say now, cause I went for the 3-weeks climbing right after mounting the new bike. So I had to fix it somehow on the road. The only idea that came up to my mind was to rub off brand new brake pads to half, so I could tight up the brake caliper a bit to make more clearance.

So what do you mean by the:
Quote:
You still need to get that initial stretch on both sides of the valve stem while mounting to help ensure that you eliminate the "hop" that can occur if you don't.

I'm not sure if I know this technique.


So, back to the main question about tubulars. The only alternatives with the butyl innertube I found is:
- Continental Force Comp. 24mm
- Tufo S33 Pro 24mm
- Tufo Elite Ride 25mm

I don't know nothing about Tufo, I heard bad stories about rolling resistance but I guess is the same with Conti Competition due to the butyl tube.

I can try go with the Vittoria Corsa G+ 25mm or S-Works Turbo 24mm but still looking for something more durable on trips.

Ok, so it sounds like the issue is more one of clearing the brake arms than the frame itself. Quite frankly, I'm surprised Campagnolo hasn't updated their complete like of skeleton brakes for this yet. As @roadhog44 mentioned, the Potenza and the newest Chorus calipers have some additional clearance that would probably get you what you need. Alternatively, the new 9100 Shimano calipers have loads of clearance. I'm actually using Shimano 105 calipers on my rain bike with full fenders and 25mm Continental Comps on Nemesis rims along with Campagnolo everywhere else. Works a treat. Haven't noticed any performance hit due to different cable pulls. If there are any, I can't notice it. But it sounds like if you want to run 25's then the best option is to get yourself some new calipers. But make sure you have at least 2.0-2.5mm clearance between your tire and the actual brake bridge of your frame as well. No use getting new calipers only to find the tire is still hitting your frame.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:30 am
Posts: 9
Yes, I am pretty sure Campy will update the other models soon. We will see.
I will measure the exact clearance between tire and frame & brakes to be sure.

Anyway, what about this:
Quote:
You still need to get that initial stretch on both sides of the valve stem while mounting to help ensure that you eliminate the "hop" that can occur if you don't.


BTW. I'm still waiting for the answer on my second issue :)
Quote:
2) rear triangle/wheel - clearance. On the non-drive side the clearance between rim/tubular and the triangle tube is quite critical. I can understand that this is due to asymmetric design of the frame. The left side tube is thicker than the right right. This makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is why it's thicker on the inner side instead of outer. Well maybe to avoid contact shoes with the tube while pedaling, I guess.
Keep in mind I use HEDs (28mm rim width) + 25mm Conti Comp. I guess for shallower rims and tubulars this issue is less strict and probably some could not notice it at all.

Anyway. My serviceman is a bit confused about how true the wheels. Shall the wheel be true as usual (and keep it quite tight on the left side) or it should be retrue to keep it more in the middle between tubes?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 4118
Re the "stretch" on the tubular, I just mean make sure you start with getting valve well seated the pulling hard and evenly away from both sides of the valve to ensure you get a good stretch in that area as opposed to waiting till the final "push" on the other side as you wrestle to get the tire completely on the rim. Especially if you're dealing with Continental tubulars.

As for truing the rear wheel, make it true and centered between the dropouts. Never make it offset to one side to compensate for asymetric chainstays etc. If the tire/wheel doesn't have clearance that's a frame issue. Use a smaller tire and/or narrower rim or get a new frame.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:30 am
Posts: 9
I'm attaching a picture to describe the clearance on the non-side drive. It's quite tight, and tighter than on the drive-side where the clearance is larger.
In my opinion it's because of the asymmetric of the frame. I measured the frame and it's true on both sides, however the left tube is wider than the right tube and I think this is why the clearance here is smaller. So the question is if it's correct or something is wrong anyway.
Anyone can compare the clearance on left and right side?

Thanks


Attachments:
17430618_1572520652762517_923230073_o.jpeg
17430618_1572520652762517_923230073_o.jpeg [ 8.13 KiB | Viewed 106 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Pinarellos are "asymetric", at least they used to be. It's a feature. It makes them faster :). Don't build an off centered wheel to compensate. You didn't buy your pinarello in a back alley in Paris, did you?

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:43 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:30 am
Posts: 9
Nah, I bought it directly from the distributor. It's original one ;-)

I'm just curious cause usually the extra width on the left side should be on outer side to keep the clearance for sprinting. On the other side, this would change aerodynamic, so maybe they compromise it. Just looking for confirmation in this case :)


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