Rain jackets: castelli idro vs gore one gtx vs poc rain jacket

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
KWalker
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by KWalker

Ive kept the Gore One on for an entire ride and never felt clammy. Fit is perfect and race cut. Rode in a 3hr downpour at 56F with a long sleeve on underneath and had no moisture of any sort.

My experience with Castelli is that they like to introduce technologies others have already used, but typically in a race-oriented or "new" application, however, to make such items affordable they cut corners.
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nemeseri
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by nemeseri

KWalker wrote:Ive kept the Gore One on for an entire ride and never felt clammy. Fit is perfect and race cut. Rode in a 3hr downpour at 56F with a long sleeve on underneath and had no moisture of any sort.

My experience with Castelli is that they like to introduce technologies others have already used, but typically in a race-oriented or "new" application, however, to make such items affordable they cut corners.


Does the gore jacket has vents? That might make some difference. During your 3 hr ride, what was the hardest zone you rode in for 10 minutes continuously? I rode 10 minutes tempo, then 4 minutes upper threshold / lower vo2max. This was enough to be covered in sweat on my arms. The jacket didn't recover from this situation for the remaining 25 minutes riding fairly easy (endurance / tempo) and the moisture inside just got worse despite I zipped out in the front almost completely. Is this too much to ask from a rain jacket? Or am I this much different and overheating type? Castelli rates the breathability of this jacket 3/5. I'd give it a 1/5.

Well... speaking of afforadble, castelli's jacket is the most expensive one with this material and very-very far from being a race fit. At least for short dudes like me.

by Weenie


KWalker
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by KWalker

No vents whatsoever.

I did 3x15min climbs at threshold. The ride itself was one of the hardest effort wise I had done in a long time. I was pretty amazed as I thought the marketing would be bullshit and I would end up the same as every other rain jacket, but the reviews do not lie. I'd say it is probably the best piece of cycling kit I have ever invested in.
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nemeseri
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by nemeseri

KWalker wrote:No vents whatsoever.

I did 3x15min climbs at threshold. The ride itself was one of the hardest effort wise I had done in a long time. I was pretty amazed as I thought the marketing would be bullshit and I would end up the same as every other rain jacket, but the reviews do not lie. I'd say it is probably the best piece of cycling kit I have ever invested in.


Wow. I just don't know what's going on then. I didn't wear gloves and at the end of the ride my hoods became slippery because of all the moisture coming out from the sleeves running all over my hands... I've never had anything like this with my long gabba jersey even slightly above 60 degrees. Maybe the trick is to wear long sleeve baselayers underneath to soak up all the moisture? The problem is that the moisture will be still there...

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Same excellent experience for me with my Gore One! :thumbup: great race cut for me and I was totally dry even after 4 hours ride with lot of rain and temperature around 6°C (I had a base layer and a jersey underneath)
I was just amazed how good this jacket is! I have also a Castelli tempesta which is also very good. but the cut is very different; less "race" and very long arms :? The "textile" of the Gore One seems however quite delicate but very light and could easily be packed in a jersey pocket.
To me the Gore One is the best - only the color (black) is not that good for this weather in terms of visibility :x . Neither is the grey of the Castelli tempesta good also :x

I just saw that Gore is also selling a newer version of the Gore One as Gore 1985 shakedry. More expensive also. It seems however that the cut is more loos and less "race" :? So not an option for me.

KWalker
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by KWalker

nemeseri wrote:
KWalker wrote:No vents whatsoever.

I did 3x15min climbs at threshold. The ride itself was one of the hardest effort wise I had done in a long time. I was pretty amazed as I thought the marketing would be bullshit and I would end up the same as every other rain jacket, but the reviews do not lie. I'd say it is probably the best piece of cycling kit I have ever invested in.


Wow. I just don't know what's going on then. I didn't wear gloves and at the end of the ride my hoods became slippery because of all the moisture coming out from the sleeves running all over my hands... I've never had anything like this with my long gabba jersey even slightly above 60 degrees. Maybe the trick is to wear long sleeve baselayers underneath to soak up all the moisture? The problem is that the moisture will be still there...


Well to me it's pretty obvious- we are talking about two different jackets. We can't assume that Castelli's is the same. Judging by the reviews, it's not. It sounds like they did not execute on the concept with success, whereas Gore clearly has. This is the case for me with many cycling brands that don't actually truly develop their own fabrics. Brands say they do, but a brand like Gore has done it for many sports for a very long time. What most cycling brands mean by developing is they order the same thing in multiple fabrics or cuts, ride in them a bit, and their product staff decides what the best one is. That's not really development in the same manner as Gore and larger manufacturers who develop a fabric in-house and then test it in house and finally deploy it in real world product testing.
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tj7mesh
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by tj7mesh

Hi all, I can chip in a little bit on the above from a brand's perspective.

The point above about Gore isn't accurate, or at least isn't supposed to be (though it's a natural assumption). Gore BikeWear is a separate company in the Gore umbrella, and there is a 'firewall' in place for anti-competitive legal reasons to ensure that BikeWear doesn't receive special treatment. So in theory they function as an independent brand. In this case W.L. Gore & Associates develop the fabric package, and the different brands buy it from them.

(As a side note, most textile developers, including Gore, don't work independently on developments most of the time. They collaborate closely with their most technical brands to understand user needs, understand potential concerns and areas for improvement, and push boundaries together. Generally speaking the strong technical brands are much closer to the activities and the end users and add a lot of value to the process. Everyone at Castelli and 7mesh is focused on cycling - that isn't true for the textile companies.)

As of today, there is only one version of this textile available - one weight, one membrane, one inner fabric, one process, one colour. Which is kinda cool, because it becomes the common canvas that the designers can work with, and it makes it more transparent for users to compare between brands. So the concern about the Castelli jacket being noteably less breathable is possible, but a bit surprising. If Castelli rates the jacket as a 3/5 for breathability that only makes sense to me if compared to non-membrane products. i.e. of course it's less breathable than a basic jersey knit, but in our experience it's a very breathable waterproof material.

Given that, my educated guess about moisture collecting in the sleeves (and this would have to be confirmed by others of course, but the writer above sounds knowledgeable and credible) is that it's because of what's been done with the fabric. The Idro's I've seen had a large red stripe down each arm, and I believe 10mm seam tape. In any area where something has been glued/laminated to the fabric, inside or out, including the entire area of taped seams, there is zero breathability - water vapor cannot pass through. So it becomes a place where moisture condensation most easily takes place. This is why design is crucial because you need to reduce that surface area as much as possible if your goal is absolute performance. Of course there are conflicting design goals on the performance side, and aesthetic goals also, which is why it's cool to see how each brand approaches it.

sanrensho
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by sanrensho

^^^Incredibly informative post. Thank you for posting.

Tristan
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by Tristan

Has anyone tried the Castelli Tempesta? More expensive than the IDRO but looks to be cut more like a rain jacket than a rain shell and available in a colour other than black or drizzle-grey
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nemeseri
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by nemeseri

tj7mesh wrote:Given that, my educated guess about moisture collecting in the sleeves (and this would have to be confirmed by others of course, but the writer above sounds knowledgeable and credible) is that it's because of what's been done with the fabric. The Idro's I've seen had a large red stripe down each arm, and I believe 10mm seam tape. In any area where something has been glued/laminated to the fabric, inside or out, including the entire area of taped seams, there is zero breathability - water vapor cannot pass through. So it becomes a place where moisture condensation most easily takes place. This is why design is crucial because you need to reduce that surface area as much as possible if your goal is absolute performance. Of course there are conflicting design goals on the performance side, and aesthetic goals also, which is why it's cool to see how each brand approaches it.


Thanks for the very informative post. I can confirm the red tapes you mentioned, but they run next to the seams and not over them. Checking the seams revealed that castelli decided to tape over every seam from the inside. I wonder what's the case with the gore and 7mesh jackets. If you don't tape over the seams water can get inside. Maybe the taping / glueing method is really important and Castelli screwed it up.

My take on the issue is that everybody is different and probably I sweat more than others. In cycling garment what works for some, might be a complete disaster for others. Also long sleeve baselayer underneath the sleeves might have helped managing the moisture. I'd love to try other jackets with this material and better fit. Although this experience let me down to the point that probably I will skip it for now. Especially that the winter is almost over.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Thanks @tj7mesh, most informative for sure. It's all the same stuff that these jackets are using so it basically comes down to fit (and I suppose wherever seams are taped or not as you say) and everyone is different in that regard. And finding the right foul/cold/cool weather cycling gear is such a trial and error process to find what works for you personally. Which doesn't mean it works for your buddy under the exact same conditions. I've been reading this thread and actually spoke with your customer rep yesterday as I know you've got some people formerly from ArcTeryx there and I've loved their stuff for quality etc so I wanted to give this a try. Demand is pretty high and sizing is limited right now so I'll keep looking, but I am looking forward to trying one of these lightweight "shakedry" types of layers soon. Not sure which one I'll end up with yet. Would be nice to actually try them all on and see which one fits best.

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tj7mesh
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by tj7mesh

@nemeseri - to clarify, you lose all breathability in both locations. All of the seam taped area (all of the jackets will have the seams taped on the inside - run away if they don't!) as well as anywhere you glue something else on externally (the red stripes) or internally. If you design & pattern well (at least the way we see it) you can reduce unnecessary seams, and if you manufacture with greater precision you can use narrower seam tape to reduce weight & stiffness and maintain as much breathability as possible.

@Calnago agree 100% that fit is crucial, and there is a lot of variation among people in body type and in 'running hot' vs 'running cold' etc. Personal characteristics are always going to be a factor in how a garment works for each individual.

edit PS @Calnago there's another thread on here where people talk a bit more about fit in the Shakedry jackets. That's a bit of a plug though because 7mesh at least made the title of that thread! ;-)

KWalker
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by KWalker

Which confirms my point that Castelli seems to have a lack of design knowledge that is inherent in many of their products. I did not know about Gore brand separation, but would imagine that they still retain some knowledge of how to, for example, properly bond a seam as Castelli has not.
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Jhomewood
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by Jhomewood

The big difference in the variance of experience with moisture building up in these jackets probably comes down to how much the individual perspires. I, thankfully, don't sweat much, but I (and i'm sure we all know somebody) know people who sweat a lot, regardless of it being warm or cold. Also, it could depend on the humidity of your local climate. if you live in Arizona, it's probably pretty damn dry there all the time, you likely will be as well. If you live in the rainforest, sure as hell, you're going to be wet.

just my two cents.

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mpulsiv
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by mpulsiv

KWalker wrote:Which confirms my point that Castelli seems to have a lack of design knowledge that is inherent in many of their products. I did not know about Gore brand separation, but would imagine that they still retain some knowledge of how to, for example, properly bond a seam as Castelli has not.


Castelli focus on fashion rather than functionality. I try to like their products but they disappoint every time. I broke up with Castelli years ago. They lure you with European fashion.
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